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Petal Alderin Profile
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Cults


Watching a frightening documentary on TV at the moment about cults and the way people get so programmed that they leave their families and the real world behind ... strange that they're always behind bars and so secretive.

Specifically, the House of Yahweh in Abeline, Texas, where a guy called Hawkins is in control, (a total megalomaniac) - lives in splendour and his followers in squalor, while they all wait for the end of the world and aren't permitted to associate with the world outside. And the men in the group roar around like stallions while the women are forced into polygamy and have to watch their daughters being "cleansed" via introduction to sex from the age of 12. This is mind control by a doomsday group, the women subservient and they're all controlled by fear. The women have to cover their faces and wear gloves .. they're all prisoners and have to submit, and go to a male elder for advice on absolutely anything - they may not make their own decisions or have minds of their own. They have to lure in and recruit potential members. Once they go in there they may never be permitted to leave. They are told they have a new family now and will be there until the end of time ... they're convinced that the outside world is contaminated - I can barely believe what I'm watching as I write this. Illness is an act of the devil, doctors are dangerous and cast curses, and they don't allow the group to go for medical help - they will happily watch a child die rather than go to a hospital.
The only time people can leave is when some of them start to realise that they've been brainwashed and start to wake up .. or if they escape. All children born have to take the surname Hawkins ... probably because most of them are of course "illegitimate".

Why? This is totally sick. I know there have been lots of cults and David Koresh is one that springs to mind; what makes intelligent people go along with this sort of madness? I'm surprised at how upsetting this is for me - I didn't realise that I could still be shocked to such a degree.

Creepy isn't the word - you should see this guy's eyes: he's deranged.

Rick, as a pastor, surely you would agree that this is totally wrong .. why do authorities allow this sort of thing to continue? Surely there is something that can be done? I know the people initially go there voluntarily so perhaps that's why the law has its hands tied?



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10/23/2008, 4:11 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Cults


Yes, the minute you do something voluntarily you are complicit in the crime, if a crime is deemed to be taking place.
The rape of 12-year-olds is a crime, a kid that age can't give informed consent yet when the group of children were removed from the last cult, the case was thrown out and the kids were returned to the cult and their parents who allow them to be married off at that age to old men.
I don't understand a legal system that will throw someone in jail for possessing a marijuana joint, yet will allow old men to rape little girls just because the rape is under the guise of religion and a cultural practice.
A paedophile who carries on his particular fetish under the name of religion is still a paedophile and parents who consent to their kids being subjected to this and use their belief system as an excuse are criminals every bit as much as a sick person who takes kids off the street and rapes them.
10/23/2008, 11:20 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Pastor Rick Profile
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Re: Cults


I'll have to come back to this one, probably Saturday, so I can give a proper response.

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10/23/2008, 11:38 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
Petal Alderin Profile
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Re: Cults


This is still foremost in my mind this morning, after a restless night worrying about it. And there are more than one of these places behind barbed wire.

Parents of some teenagers from different families who had been recruited to these horrible sects were interviewed, and it was awful to see their grief and despair and hopelessness - they've tried everything they can think of to persuade their children to come home and see the real light about their situation - all to no avail. It must be devastating for them .. imagine having your child drawn in by one of these evil people - I think they're actually completely insane and should be locked up in asylums and have the keys thrown away, and forced to do things just the same way that they impose their twisted power on others.
Two wrongs don't make a right, my Dad used to say, but - I just don't know how society and the law and the authorities can allow this to happen. There must be a loophole somewhere?

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10/24/2008, 12:19 am Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Cults


Unfortunately not much you can do if someone gives their consent Petal. You have to sit back and let the thing run its course. You children grow up and make decisions, sometimes they are great ones and at other times they break your heart.
All you can do is give them the best values you can when you still have the right to but once they are old enough to make their own decisions, there's nothing you can do.
I know that even if your child disappears, if they are over 18, the police won't look for them unless you can absolutely prove foul play.
I don't know what I would've done if one of mine had joined a cult.
10/24/2008, 2:26 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Petal Alderin Profile
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Re: Cults


Some of these kids are 15 and 16 and at a very impressionable age. I think it's absolutely criminal.

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10/24/2008, 6:51 am Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Cults


Unfortunately today 15/16 year olds are not what they were when we were kids. They are so grown up and they rule the roost so parents have to do what the kids tell them or the kids threaten suicide or other dire punishments on their parents.
My mother used to say that today's parents were the most obedient people on the planet.
When my kids were that age i told them that if they wanted to be boss they had to take over the responsibility as well. So they would have to get jobs and earn as much as we did and then we'd hand the house over to them. If they couldn't do that and wanted to live with us, then they were still children and had to live by our rules.
10/24/2008, 8:32 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Lesigner Girl Profile
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Re: Cults


quote:

Why? This is totally sick. I know there have been lots of cults and David Koresh is one that springs to mind; what makes intelligent people go along with this sort of madness? I'm surprised at how upsetting this is for me - I didn't realise that I could still be shocked to such a degree.



The leaders of these cults are just very good snake oil salesmen, who know which people to prey on. They deploy the usual evangelical practices (no offense to Rick or other good people with Christian beliefs, I'm thinking mainly of the wealthy churches who are only in it for the money) — you have a horrible disease (sin) that will bring about excruciating results (eternal hellfire), but do what we say and you'll be cured, earning you eternal bliss.

What makes their recruiting practices different than the others is, they also throw in some sleep deprivation and alteration of diet, in case fear tactics alone don't do the trick. And while some "normal" churches will tell their congregations not to associate themselves with non-believers (in effect cutting them off from anyone who might challenge their faith), the cults that are generally agreed upon as being cults will go one step further by not allowing any contact with the outside world whatsoever.

Generally, the adults they lure into these cults are already feeling alone and worthless, and they are promised an instant family who will love and accept them, as well as the ultimate love and acceptance of God. Like a battered wife who believes her husband truly loves her, they will put up with anything as long as they continue to believe they have that love and acceptance, as opposed to the lonely and unloved life they had before joining the group.

When a child is born into such a situation, that is all they know, so they have no frame of reference to know that what they are being subjected to is bad.

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10/26/2008, 7:24 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Cults


Well put Lesa.
I've had some personal experience with people who belong to religions that I regard as cults and I agree with everything you say. It's not some much brain-washing as very clever psychology.
The person who feels insecure and unsure of themselves and who finds security and self-assurance by the association with these people will stay in the environment that brings that feeling of worth. It's a lot easier than dealing with the secular world without the support of like-minded people. And if you can drag enough of these insecure people into the web, they validate each other so the individual feeling of security become a support group.
To be honest I am not totally in favor of support groups for this very reason. I know that they help initially with tragedy but I believe that they develop the culture of a cult over time. I think that if you have an insecurity or a psychological problem, or if you think that someone in your family can be helped with therapy, it is far better to spend the money on a therapist to deal with the problem one on one rather than seek the support of like-minded people because of the danger of the eventual development of a cult-like mentality in a group-help situation.
I told you, I am not a team player.
10/26/2008, 10:37 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Cults


Petal, I've taken a bit of time to think about your cult thread and before I give you the results of some research I've done, I must also say that the sort of mentality of the people who run these cults is the same sort of mentality that causes people to take airplanes and fly them into buildings. These aren't rational ordinary folk who have religion as part of their social culture, but rather for whom religion is their social culture and it is the subject of some very intensive research by psychologists, particularly since 9/11.

Here is some of what I've found.

the sort of person who would run a cult, not the person who wants to make money off it but rather the sort of person who will lead a group of people into mass suicide is known as a fundamentalist, and here is the psychological profile:

quote:


    * A strictly hierarchical and authoritarian worldview. Everything has to have a First, a Somebody in Charge. In any partnership, one partner has to have the deciding vote. Groups and societies work best with rigidly defined roles and stratifications. (There are people who believe this way who are not fundamentalists: at least, not religious fundamentalists.)
    * Ethical development at the "reward and punishment" stage: morality must be defined and enforced by an external authority.
    * A lot of guilt and fear about sex.
    * Basic distrust of human beings; certainty that "uncontrolled," human beings will be bad and vicious, particularly in sexual ways.
    * Low tolerance for ambiguity. Everything must be clear cut, black and white. Nothing can be "possibly true but unproven at this time, we're still studying it." Fundamentalists regard science as flawed precisely because science changes. (A striking characteristic of fundamentalists is that their response to any setback which may instill doubt is to step up evangelizing for converts.)
    * Literalism, usually including a limited sense of humor.
    * Distrust of their own judgment, or any other human being's judgment.
    * Fear of the future. The driving motivation of fundamentalism appears to outsiders to be fear that oneself or the group one identifies with is losing power and prerequisites and is in danger from others who are gaining power. This is not how fundamentalists put it.
    * A low self-esteem that finds satisfaction in being one of the Elect, superior to all others. It seems to be particularly rewarding to know that rich people have a real hard time getting into Heaven.




Professor of Christianity and director of the Center for Baptist Studies, Walter Shurden, at Mercer University has the following to say:
"Fundamentalist" is a term sometimes used to refer to anyone who is intolerant of other's beliefs. Fundamentalism is "not so much an ideology as it is an attitude, an attitude of intolerance, incivility and narrowness," ... "It is an attitude that says, 'We have the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and we are going to impose it on you and control the system so that you will have to knuckle under to it.'"

And you can read the entire analysis here: [url)http://www.anitra.net/activism/fundamentalism/psychology.html[/url]

The interesting thing that I have found in the research I've done in the last couple of days is that ordinary well-balanced religious people all see fundamentalism the way that I've described it, not as religious fervor but rather as fear and insecurity and the other interesting thing is that the psychological research is, in all the work I've read anyway, from people who are deeply religious themselves and not from atheists.

Here is another website Catalyst for Renewal.

I hope this helps understand the mentality behind the cultist.



Last edited by Morwen Oronor, 10/28/2008, 1:08 pm
10/28/2008, 1:06 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 


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