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Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: Good News


I know, but it depends on what standard you use. The Bible tells us that there are none found good, not one.
And that's by God's standard, not man's.

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.


---

Message sent from Heaven
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Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/2/2009, 6:39 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Good News


Right so if you believe that, then what's the point.
It's like a child who cannot do anything to please it's parent. The parent is indifferent no matter how much they achieve, no matter what good deed they do, the parent doesn't care, except to provide a home and food and security and tells the child he is loved but nothing the child does impresses the parent. What usually happens in these cases, the child stops trying.
I'm afraid this is what the whole idea of good and evil is all about, if we are all 'sinners' even the best of us, then what's the point in trying. If Mother Theresa, despite everything she did in her life, is still a 'sinner' then there's no hope for anyone, so why bother?
Just in case? Just in case, doesn't work here. Therefore everybody must remain in a depressed state "what the hell, I keep trying he still doesn't think very highly of me, so I'll just go my own way and let him get on with it!"
2/2/2009, 10:14 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: Good News


The point is understanding the need for a Savior.
The analogy of the indifferent parent is quite sad, but has nothing to do with Christianity. God is not impersonal, and loves us so much that He's provided a way, even though we don't deserve it, and are incapable of saving ourselves.

The funny thing is, Christians don't feel the way you've portrayed it. Doesn't that make you wonder why? Do you think that you could be missing something about the core belief of true Christianity?


---

Message sent from Heaven
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Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/3/2009, 12:40 am Link to this post Send PM to
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Good News


I'm not missing the point.
A loving parent loves its child unconditionally, faults and all.
If God loves us the way you say, then our 'sins' wouldn't matter to him.
If there is a way to not be deemed a sinner, then how come even those who have been 'saved' are still regarded as sinners?
If all the people in the world who have been saved and who live good, exemplary Christians lives are still regarded as sinners, then what is the point.
You say reward is not the reason for wanting to be a Christian, and if you are a sinner not matter how well you live your life, then what is the point?
2/3/2009, 1:47 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Good News


We were given a certain amount of freedom, within God's sovereignty, without that choice, there could be no true love. We can submit to Him, or we can go our own way. But there are consequences for the choices made.
quote:

If God loves us the way you say, then our 'sins' wouldn't matter to him.

That is not what the God of the Bible has revealed to us in Scripture. He is not ONLY love, He is also holy, righteous and JUST.

Now, if we are found guilty of breaking His laws, He cannot simply overlook that and let us into heaven anyway, while still remaining just. The fine must be paid. Just like in a human court of law, a criminal could not stand before a just judge and be set free in the name of love. But if someone else were to pay the fine for him, then that man could go free.
And that's what happened, we broke the law, and Jesus paid our fine. It's that simple. Now, how do we make that sacrifice pertain to us? It doesn't apply to everyone so they can just continue to live like there was no law. That would be trampling the Son of God under foot. We submit to Him in repentance and trust.
Does a Christian still sin? Sure, but there is a difference. A Christian fights against the sinful nature, resisting temptation and repents of it when they do fall, while an unbeliever will embrace the pleasure of sin (which only lasts for a season) and they attempt to justify it.

We like to think that we're good enough, that we can earn our way through good works. However, what it takes is really seeing ourselves as God does, and it takes complete submission to Him, giving up all hope, and trusting in Christ alone.
Now, a true believer will exhibit good works as fruit of salvation, but that doesn't earn their salvation. And they don't come to Christ for a reward, nor do they come out of fear of hell. We should fear hell, but that isn't the reason we become Christians. We come out of gratitude that He loved us enough to provide a way that we may be saved, even though we are undeserving and incapable of saving ourselves.
And our human pride has a problem with that.

---

Message sent from Heaven
Walked among us as a Man
Son of God and Light of the world
Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/3/2009, 11:33 am Link to this post Send PM to
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Good News


quote:

We come out of gratitude that He loved us enough to provide a way that we may be saved



And then what? You're still a sinner. You aren't any different to what you were before?

And about free choice. It's a fallacy. There is no such thing as free choice.
We don't make decisions based on the freedom to choose, we make decisions based on various other things that affect the way we choose.

For instance someone who has never experienced any other way of dressing but in a long black outfit with her face half-covered, and has been indoctrinated that this is the way God expects her to dress, firstly doesn't choose to dress that way, she does it because she feels compelled to dress that way. When women who dress that way are asked, they say that they choose to adhere to the rules of their religion, and on the surface it appears that it is a choice, but if the same woman had been brought up in a society of bikinis and mini-skirts, she would never dream of dressing in a burqu, unless she became a Muslim but then she wouldn't choose to dress in the uniform of the Muslim woman, her choice to dress that way would be made on her religious conviction and her desire to please the people in her life.
Free choice means making choices despite all the pressures of upbringing, behavioural conditioning, cultural influences, education, religion, the law. All of these are taken into consideration before a choice is made. Choices are therefore not made from freedom but as a result of the influences of all the above.
Therefore the idea of choices being 'free' even in a totally open society is a fallacy.
2/3/2009, 12:27 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: Good News


quote:

And then what? You're still a sinner. You aren't any different to what you were before?

Ah, but you ARE different. God will give you a new heart, new desires, you will want to keep His commands, if there is no change, then you haven't become a Christian.
quote:

Therefore the idea of choices being 'free' even in a totally open society is a fallacy.

All those influences may affect the choice, but in the end, it is each individual that makes their own choice.
They can choose to submit or to rebel.



---

Message sent from Heaven
Walked among us as a Man
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Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/3/2009, 2:36 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
Free04 Profile
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Re: Good News


quote:

Morwen Oronor wrote:

[Free choice means making choices despite all the pressures of upbringing, behavioural conditioning, cultural influences, education, religion, the law. All of these are taken into consideration before a choice is made. Choices are therefore not made from freedom but as a result of the influences of all the above.
Therefore the idea of choices being 'free' even in a totally open society is a fallacy.



Just Curious Mo. What influenced you to make the above post?




Last edited by Free04, 2/3/2009, 2:39 pm


---


John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Good News


quote:

Order ofMelchizedek wrote:

quote:

And then what? You're still a sinner. You aren't any different to what you were before?

Ah, but you ARE different. God will give you a new heart, new desires, you will want to keep His commands, if there is no change, then you haven't become a Christian.
quote:

Therefore the idea of choices being 'free' even in a totally open society is a fallacy.

All those influences may affect the choice, but in the end, it is each individual that makes their own choice.
They can choose to submit or to rebel.




To reply to Free - I mad that post in reply to what Mel has been saying, read the previous page.

To reply to Mel.
If you believe that the heart has something to do with feelings, then I suppose you can say that, but it doesn't make a difference to your being perceived as a sinner. In your own words, god sees as a sinner even after he has given you several new 'hearts' even a few extra ones isn't going to make a difference, you are still a sinner, not matter how many commands your obey.
And on the subject of free choice, you 'choose' to 'obey' or 'rebel' not because you have been 'saved' but because the 'choice' to be 'saved' comes as a result of whether you are conditioned to be 'saved'.
You have to agree that unless you are exposed to a constant barrage of evangelism, the chances of being 'saved' are very slim. A person living in the jungles of South America who has pushed all modern living standards aside preferring to live according to the ancient customs of his tribe, cannot possibly be abandoned by a god he has never heard of. A person who has strong ties to his Buddhist or Shinto religion and who has lived a long life under that religion cannot be excluded from God's 'grace' simply because he hasn't embraced Christianity. The 'choices' to remain with the religion you've known for all of your life whether it is an ancient tribal worship, Judaism, Shintoism, Buddhism or Islam, are not real choices, they are as a result of the conditioning of a lifetime of living with the culture. And if someone does become a Christian as an adult after a lifetime of living with another culture, the change is really only superficial, no matter how much they protest. It is impossible to completely break the behavioural conditioning of our childhoods or the cultural traditions of the environment in which we live, no matter what we do on the surface, the connections are still in the brain. No amount of 'brain-washing' can remove them completely.
I've seen this in my lifetime, people who become devout observant Christians (i.e. people who've been 'saved') when faced with a crisis often revert to what they were before they became Christians. This is because the old conditioning elicits familiar, comfortable responses in their psyche which makes them feel more secure with the known and familiar rather than with the new, novel and unfamiliar. It's not 'rebellion' is perfectly normal and natural human behaviour.
2/3/2009, 10:50 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Good News


Ah, the "heart" thing seems to be lost in translation, it must not be a common South African expression. It's not just "feelings', but means the very center of your being, the essential desires of what makes the person who they are.

The difference is a sinner saved by grace, whom Christ has died as a propitiation for our sins - once for all, past, present and future. But those sins we might commit in the future will not be sins of wanton rebellion, but mistakes, repented of and forgiven. God will not see us as sinners, as Jesus Christ stands as mediator, having paid our fine, presenting us perfect in Him.

And yes, I've heard all the stuff about "conditioning" and "where you've grown up", but what of those in countries where professing Christianity can get you killed? It happens to this day. And still, people come to the Lord, some are martyred, some are not.

When they revert back to what they were before Christianity, it only reveals that they were false converts, never truly submitting to the Lord. The Bible even tells us of this - the dog returning to it's vomit, and the sow, after being cleansed, returning to the mud.

There's an old saying that I find to be true:
People are like tea bags, you don't know what they're really made of until they're in hot water.




---

Message sent from Heaven
Walked among us as a Man
Son of God and Light of the world
Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/4/2009, 12:43 am Link to this post Send PM to
 


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