Runboard.com
You're welcome.
The Neutral Zone
Welcome To The Neutral Zone:
The place to discuss topics that may cause debates on other boards without getting yelled at or banned!

"It is not so much our friends' help that helps us, as the confidence of their help." - Epicurus


runboard.com       Sign up (learn about it) Sign in (lost password?)


Page:  1  2  3  4  5 ... 7  8  9 

 
Morwen Oronor Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Resident Scholar
(Top of the page)

Registered: 01-2008
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1743
Karma: 15 (+28/-13)
Reply Quote
Re: Good News


quote:

Order ofMelchizedek wrote:

Ah, the "heart" thing seems to be lost in translation, it must not be a common South African expression. It's not just "feelings', but means the very center of your being, the essential desires of what makes the person who they are.



Let me explain. At the time when the early religious texts were written, it was generally thought that the heart was the centre of the the being. For this reason, all references to reasoning and emotion were attributed to the heart. This, we all know, is no longer valid, we know that emotion and feeling are controlled by the brain in conjunction with hormonal activity and that the heart is only an organ for pumping blood. Using hearts to express feeling is a romantic and religious thing only. Nothing else. What makes you who you are is a combination of your psychological makeup which is partly upbringing, partly behavioural training partly culture, partly your life experience and partly the actions of the various hormones streaming through your body. If you're going to talk about the 'center of your being' then talk about your brain not your heart except in romantic terms. Nothing to do with being South African.

quote:

The difference is a sinner saved by grace, whom Christ has died as a propitiation for our sins - once for all, past, present and future. But those sins we might commit in the future will not be sins of wanton rebellion, but mistakes, repented of and forgiven. God will not see us as sinners, as Jesus Christ stands as mediator, having paid our fine, presenting us perfect in Him.


So you say that once saved, and continuing to live according to the teaching that caused you to be 'saved' you are no longer a sinner in God's eyes but, it appears, only in the eyes of people who claim that everybody is a sinner.

quote:

And yes, I've heard all the stuff about "conditioning" and "where you've grown up", but what of those in countries where professing Christianity can get you killed? It happens to this day. And still, people come to the Lord, some are martyred, some are not.

When they revert back to what they were before Christianity, it only reveals that they were false converts, never truly submitting to the Lord. The Bible even tells us of this - the dog returning to it's vomit, and the sow, after being cleansed, returning to the mud.



Those are disgusting analogies and not suited to describing psychologically healthy people. Even healthy dogs return to their vomit to see if it can be recycled, it's part of what being an animal is, you don't let any food go to waste. And pigs wallow in mud to protect their skins from the sun, not because they are dirty.
You see this is where psychology and religion cannot meet. Very often people who have psychological problems, turn to religion, as others turn to drugs to find a way to deal with those psychological problems. This is very often the case when people cannot deal with aspects of who they are, so they avoid dealing with the the problem by turning to religion. Once they are taught to deal with the problem and face it, they no longer need to avoid it so they abandon the religion. There's nothing wrong with that, except in the eyes of people who call everybody 'sinners'.. I'm sure even God would want his children to be properly functioning people. But of course this doesn't work for those who see only the wrong in others.
What you have succeeded in explaining to me is the reason why deeply devout Christians refuse to have family members treated for psychological problems.



quote:

There's an old saying that I find to be true:
People are like tea bags, you don't know what they're really made of until they're in hot water.


I've heard some old sayings, but I've never heard that one. And it's nonsense, you don't have to be in trouble to show what you are made of. Some people go through their entire lives without anything ever going wrong. Usually these people are psychologically very sound, as a result of being raised by wise parents, having no financial or health problems and living in a society which is balanced and secure. You find a lot of people like this in Africa. Serene, calm, wonderful people who are very wise and very happy with who they are, and these sort of people are wonderful to have around in a crisis, because they don't panic.




2/4/2009, 1:09 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user
(Top of the page)

Registered: 07-2006
Location: Here I am
Posts: 504
Karma: -2 (+21/-23)
Reply Quote
Re: Good News


Hmm, thanks for the atheist lesson. emoticon
It sheds some light on some of your thought processes and why you must reject some things because of the path it might take you later. You're an intelligent lady, always watching a few steps ahead to see where the discussion might end up.
But the sun still rises on all, doesn't it? Oh wait, no, we know better than that now. The earth still spins around the sun, no?

You don't have to like it, or accept it, I was just attempting to give you an understanding of the belief from a Christian perspective.
But it would seem that our conversation is over, as it has now become quite unproductive. It's 'foolishness', isn't it?



---

Message sent from Heaven
Walked among us as a Man
Son of God and Light of the world
Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/4/2009, 11:06 am Link to this post Send PM to
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Resident Scholar
(Top of the page)

Registered: 01-2008
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1743
Karma: 15 (+28/-13)
Reply Quote
Re: Good News


We can always agree to disagree but if we can conduct a discussion in that atmosphere, we can both learn.
I understand a lot more about the way Christians think from speaking to you and Free and Rick.
I will always challenge because I need to know everything.

 emoticon
2/4/2009, 11:27 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user
(Top of the page)

Registered: 07-2006
Location: Here I am
Posts: 504
Karma: -2 (+21/-23)
Reply Quote
Re: Good News


Have you ever seen this?

with an atheist

This guy understands Christianity, better than most professed Christians do, yet, he remains an atheist.




---

Message sent from Heaven
Walked among us as a Man
Son of God and Light of the world
Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/4/2009, 5:21 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Resident Scholar
(Top of the page)

Registered: 01-2008
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1743
Karma: 15 (+28/-13)
Reply Quote
Re: Good News


I understand everything he has said, yes I get all that he has said.
There are two points - first one I have to get off my chest has nothing to to with the content. If you're going to put your video out there in the public domain, check your spelling 'omission' has one 'm' and two 's's.
I know I go on about spelling but people who can't spell or who don't use language correctly not coming across as having any authority. Let me explain this. when you are undergoing a serious, and lengthy, course of study, one of things you have to do is read a lot of academic text and write a lot of essays that will, hopefully be read by the public. You will never be taken seriously and your knowledge will never be respected if you don't take the time and the trouble to either use a spell-and-grammar checker on your computer.
I don't mean this personally, it is just an observation and one that is shared by other people who read a lot of academic literature. Most will say that if they read something, even on the internet, and the spelling and grammar are all wrong, they cannot take the writer seriously.
OK that's done.
To get back to what he is saying. Most people understand everything he says about what Christians believe and how they have to spread the good news and his analogy of a man facing a burning building is a good one. But, most unbelievers don't believe that the building is burning, i.e. we don't believe that there is a heaven or a hell and therefore cannot see the reason for having people 'thumping their Bibles' at us.
For me, personally, I can't understand that people live their whole lives in fear of eternal hellfire to the extent that they give up the chance of a wonderful life experiencing all the joys and pleasures that are there waiting to be enjoyed and that they will actively deny their children the pleasure of learning the wonders of the world without attaching mythology and fear to it.
You've said before that you are not motivated by fear, but if the promise of heaven is the reward for being a good Christian and the threat of hell is the punishment for not being one, then how is the motivation of reward and the threat of fear not the issue?
2/5/2009, 1:02 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user
(Top of the page)

Registered: 07-2006
Location: Here I am
Posts: 504
Karma: -2 (+21/-23)
Reply Quote
Re: Good News


I understand what you're saying about spelling and grammar errors, and I try to keep my posts correct, although I'm sure some mistakes slip through.
However, I also try not to judge others on this, because I've seen some very intelligent people with great points that just don't seem to have a strength in typing. (I know, you'd think they could you spell check, but for whatever reason, some don't. )

Anyway, I find the video interesting, while very sad. It just goes to show that Christianity is much more than just knowledge, which sadly, a lot of professed Christians seem to be lacking.

But, back on track - fear of hell should definately be considered, but not the sole reason a person comes to Christ. If they come solely out of fear, they still see God as unjust, that He would punish them for what they consider minor infractions.
As for rewards, we must understand that we deserve none and cannot earn it, so that is not the correct motivation, either.

Only by understanding that God is holy, righteous and just, and that He has a standard that we've fallen short of, that we actually deserve punishment for not keeping His law, only then, can we understand what He's done for us, and come to Him out of gratitude, in submission, thus avoiding His wrath, and receiving the rewards given as a gift that cannot be earned.

So, fear and reward are part of the issue, but cannot stand alone if we have a proper understanding of the Christian faith.



---

Message sent from Heaven
Walked among us as a Man
Son of God and Light of the world
Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/5/2009, 12:01 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Resident Scholar
(Top of the page)

Registered: 01-2008
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1743
Karma: 15 (+28/-13)
Reply Quote
Re: Good News


I have a real problem with punishment.
I believe that positive reinforcement is a far better way of solving a problem than punishment.
We only have to look at how full our jails are, everywhere, to see that punishment does not change behavior.
For this reason the idea of a loving, pure, omnipotent, caring father, who would know that punishment is not a deterrent, would find other ways of changing the behavior of his children.
To me it is wrong to call someone a sinner simply because they don't live according to the Christian faith, and I ask again, what about the truly devout people of other faiths and what about the people who live in far-off distant places where Christianity is completely foreign, are these people going to rot in hell in the afterlife?
I can say a lot more on the idea of fathers and punishment but that's not the subject being discussed here.
2/5/2009, 12:11 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user
(Top of the page)

Registered: 07-2006
Location: Here I am
Posts: 504
Karma: -2 (+21/-23)
Reply Quote
Re: Good News


Well, there's a difference between punishment and reform. Positive reinforcement will work in changing behavior sometimes, but we're talking about punishment, not a change in behavior. These are two different things, although they can be interconnected.

At the time of punishment, it's too late for a change in behavior, now it's time to pay the fine. Punishment can be a deterent for later crimes, but that's not it's primary purpose. If the behavior doesn't change, then I guess the criminal can count on being punished again at a later time.

From [sign in to see URL]
quote:

pun·ish·ment n.

The act or an instance of punishing.
The condition of being punished.
A penalty imposed for wrongdoing: "The severity of the punishment must . . . be in keeping with the kind of obligation which has been violated" (Simone Weil).
Rough handling; mistreatment: These old skis have taken a lot of punishment over the years.


Also at [sign in to see URL], I found this, which is interesting that it even talks about the NT.
quote:

Punishment

The New Testament lays down the general principles of good government, but contains no code of laws for the punishment of offenders. Punishment proceeds on the principle that there is an eternal distinction between right and wrong, and that this distinction must be maintained for its own sake. It is not primarily intended for the reformation of criminals, nor for the purpose of deterring others from sin. These results may be gained, but crime in itself demands punishment.
-------------------------------------------------------------
American Psychological Association (APA):
punishment. (n.d.). © Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.. Retrieved February 05, 2009, from website: [sign in to see URL]
Chicago Manual Style (CMS):
punishment. . © Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.. [sign in to see URL] (accessed: February 05, 2009).
Modern Language Association (MLA):
"punishment." © Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.. 05 Feb. 2009. < [sign in to see URL]>.
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE):
, "punishment," in © Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.. Source location: Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.. [sign in to see URL] Available: [sign in to see URL]. Accessed: February 05, 2009.
BibTeX Bibliography Style (BibTeX)
@article {2009,  title = {© Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.},  February 05, 2009 [sign in to see URL]



We're all sinners. The question would be, do we sin because we're sinners, or are we sinners because we sin?

quote:

and I ask again, what about the truly devout people of other faiths and what about the people who live in far-off distant places where Christianity is completely foreign, are these people going to rot in hell in the afterlife?

I'm afraid so. The amount of devotion one would have for something does not make it true. It is the object of that faith and devotion that must be worthy, not the faith itself. They wouldn't go to hell because they haven't heard of Christianity, but because they too, have sinned against God. His law is written in our hearts, meaning we know right from wrong, our own conscience testifies against us. And the Bible tells us that you will find God, if you seek Him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. According to Scripture, Jesus Christ is the only way, and all other faiths are false.
Before we blame God for this, we should consider that we would not blame a life preserver in a drowning death, but that life preserver could have prevented that death.

Christianity is exclusive, in that there is no other way, but it is also inclusive, in that anyone can come to Jesus Christ.



---

Message sent from Heaven
Walked among us as a Man
Son of God and Light of the world
Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/5/2009, 3:05 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Resident Scholar
(Top of the page)

Registered: 01-2008
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1743
Karma: 15 (+28/-13)
Reply Quote
Re: Good News


And what about Christians who worship differently?

If find this extremely hard to accept. You are saying that Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and Jews are all damned to hell. And the Indians in the Patagonian forests!

I think that all of those would disagree vehemently.

I would rather take my chances on disbelief. If my body is dead and rotten, or already burned up in a crematorium, then there is nothing of it left to feel the fire as it has already been through worse than hellfire.

In my opinion, the idea of heaven and hell stemmed from the observation of the lives different people lead. My personal experience is that if you grow up and continue to live in an environment of peace and harmony, and if you remain within the boundaries of the law, your life can be 'heaven on earth'. If you break the law or create conflict and strife in your life, you make your own life 'hell on earth'. Just my personal feeling. I know the life I've led and I know that my life on earth is as close as I'll ever get to what I would like heaven to be, so I'll enjoy what I have here and too bad if I have to spend eternity burning up in hell with my Jewish and pagan ancestors. I'd rather be there with them anyway than in a place where my very devout father and mother and all my pets aren't welcome.
No disrespect for anyone's beliefs intended here, I just don't like the sound of a god who would create people in his own image and then condemn them to hell for not believing that he did that.
It's a little like a father beating his child to death for the child's not believing that he is his real father and not being able to prove it medically. A truly loving father would never do that, he would accept the child's disbelief but continue to support and inspire him until the child finally accepted him as his father even if he still believed that the person isn't his biological father.
I hope you get that analogy.

And on the subject of punishment. I still don't believe that punishment works with criminals, it only makes them into worse criminals. In ancient cultures, people were put to death if they were not able to be rehabilitated but for petty crimes, they were made to make restitution to the people they had wronged, a far better way of dealing with crime. It's insane that people are locked up for something as stupid as smoking grass.

Mel, please give me your insight on my other thread about life being sacred.

Thanks Mel, I see you did.

Last edited by Morwen Oronor, 2/6/2009, 12:19 am
2/5/2009, 10:47 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
Live feed
Blog
Friends
Miscellaneous info

Registered user
(Top of the page)

Registered: 07-2006
Location: Here I am
Posts: 504
Karma: -2 (+21/-23)
Reply Quote
Re: Good News


quote:

And what about Christians who worship differently?

I guess that would depend on key doctrine. If they are obedient Christians, submitting to God's authority, then what would you mean by 'differently'?
quote:

If find this extremely hard to accept. You are saying that Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and Jews are all damned to hell.

Indeed, it's not easy to say, and we certainly don't say it with joy. That's why Christians see evangelism as so important. God would prefer that people repent and be saved, but they can do as they will.
quote:

I just don't like the sound of a god who would create people in his own image and then condemn them to hell for not believing that he did that.

Again, that's not the reason. No one goes to hell for not believing in Jesus Christ, even though He would save them if they turned to Him. They go to hell for breaking God's law. And everyone has enough knowledge of God to be condemned by their own conscience.
quote:

It's a little like a father beating his child to death for the child's not believing that he is his real father and not being able to prove it medically

I understand the analogy you're making, but it's not the same. God's love doesn't overcome His justice - except through Jesus Christ, who took on the punishment that we deserve, thus justice is upheld, while we don't get the punishment that we deserve. We commit the crime, and He paid the fine.
quote:

I still don't believe that punishment works with criminals, it only makes them into worse criminals.

But you're still looking at punishment as a method of reformation, and that's not the primary purpose. The punishment is the just reward for the crime committed.
quote:

Mel, please give me your insight on my other thread about life being sacred.

I did! emoticon



---

Message sent from Heaven
Walked among us as a Man
Son of God and Light of the world
Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/6/2009, 12:20 am Link to this post Send PM to
 


Add a reply

Page:  1  2  3  4  5 ... 7  8  9 





You are not logged in (login)