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Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


I think your quote sums it up pretty well. It's the difference between "murder" and "kill".

I would hold to the NT, in which Jesus says that if you hate someone without just cause, you are a murderer at heart.
Would I kill to protect my family? Sure. Do I believe that a murderer should be put to death? Probably - depending on the circumstances.





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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


While I don't hold with the death penalty, I have some strong feelings about people who are just plain evil in every sense of the word. People like Ted Bundy and his ilk. I would shoot them myself and I am the biggest pacifist on the planet.
I question my feelings about this subject, this is why I'd like to hear what people who have strong religious feelings have to say.
Let's explore the question further. What about abortion? And what about the cases where a choice has to be made between a mother and a child? I had a discussion about this recently and after some 'soul-searching', ie. some deep thought I surprised myself with my conclusions, but before I voice those, I'd like to see what you, Rick, and Petal (and of course others) have to say.
2/6/2009, 12:14 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


I would say that abortion is wrong. What it comes down to, though, is when you think that life begins. If it begins at inception, then it's murder.

Now, when the mother's life is at stake, and I mean her very life not some "medical reasons", and a choice has to be made between the two, then that choice has to be made and we mourn the loss.
I believe that should be the only reason, and that reason is pretty rare these days.



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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


I know that vengeance is a biblical thing but is the death penalty not murder?
Is the person who pulls the plug not just as much a murderer as the murderer he is killing?
On the subject of abortion. My personal feeling is that all life is sacred and that once started it should be allowed to live the extent of its lifespan, and this applies to the unborn as well. However, as I said before, I've had to do some 'soul-searching' especially in the case of a mother who is about to die in childbirth or who's life is threatened by pre-eclampsia,
I have some thoughts on this that I'll return to later when I've had input from some other people.
But on a straight question of the death penalty - I would say 'no' even though I think that Saddam Hussein should have died for what he did, his hanging was awful.
On abortion too, I would also say 'no' personally but I do think that the person involved should make the decision and that decision should rest on their own conscience.
2/6/2009, 2:20 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: The sanctity of life


quote:

I know that vengeance is a biblical thing but is the death penalty not murder?

Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord.
But no, I don't see the death penalty as murder, it is punishment for a horrible crime committed.
quote:

Is the person who pulls the plug not just as much a murderer as the murderer he is killing?

The difference is that one is doing it on his own, while the other has broken the law, been through court proceedings, found guilty and the punishment set through the courts.
quote:

On abortion too, I would also say 'no' personally but I do think that the person involved should make the decision and that decision should rest on their own conscience.

I find this interesting, and I used to feel the same way. I just read something recently on how the whole idea of abortion became a "choice" issue, rather than a "morality" issue. I had never realized that before.
I won't post it here, but check out the link.
[sign in to see URL]
It tells of the lies and manipulation of the media in order to get this legalized in America.



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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


OK I'll read that in the morning as well.
But my own feelings about 'choice' are based on a lot of things, including my belief that we don't actually 'choose' as much as react to what we know. But more on this tomorrow morning. I am rather exhausted from today's heat, so I'm off to watch TV. I'll be back early in the morning.
2/6/2009, 1:27 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


quote:

Order ofMelchizedek wrote:

quote:

I know that vengeance is a biblical thing but is the death penalty not murder?

Vengeance is Mine, says the Lord.


I know that's what the bible says, but where does the killing stop? Maybe the idea of murdering people who commit murder worked very well 5,000 years ago but knowing what I know about how the mind works, I know that we are not naturally inclined towards murder. Most 'normal' people are abhorred by violence that leads to the death of another person, this is why returning solders have such a terrible time fitting into civilian life and why so many of them suffer from post-traumatic stress. Therefore the kind of person who can cold-bloodedly kill another person is not 'normal' and, taking religion out of the picture, shouldn't be treated with punishment but rather with medical care. People like the various serial killers we've all known, their brains don't work the way 'normal' people's brains work, and therefore they should be locked away from normal society rather than society perpetuate the killing. If the right to life covers all human life, then, this ought to include the lives of those who kill.
 
quote:

quote:

Is the person who pulls the plug not just as much a murderer as the murderer he is killing?

The difference is that one is doing it on his own, while the other has broken the law, been through court proceedings, found guilty and the punishment set through the courts.


You see, from what I've said above, this makes the judge, jury and the 'hangman' just as much takers of life as the person whose life they are taking. This is the way I see it.
quote:

quote:

On abortion too, I would also say 'no' personally but I do think that the person involved should make the decision and that decision should rest on their own conscience.

I find this interesting, and I used to feel the same way. I just read something recently on how the whole idea of abortion became a "choice" issue, rather than a "morality" issue. I had never realized that before.
I won't post it here, but check out the link.
[sign in to see URL]
It tells of the lies and manipulation of the media in order to get this legalized in America.


I've read that, this is what I mean about 'normal' people being abhorred by killing. But there are a few issues I must point out.
Firstly, I don't agree with abortion and I would be hard put to be convinced that it's right.
Then I am also worldy-wise enough to know that making a thing illegal, doesn't stop people doing it and the history of illegal abortions is material enough for us to know that as long as people are careless about birth control, they will get abortions any way that they can (the same goes for alcohol, drugs, prostitution etc.) I don't think that government ought to be the watch-dog of our morals. Morality should be a personal thing. As your religion guides your morality, other peoples' morality is what their conscience tells them. I feel that in matters of conscience, we should go with what we 'feel' is right, and if you can live with yourself after having had, or having done an abortion, that is between you and your conscience and nobody else's business. It's better that alcohol, drugs, prostitution, abortions etc. be properly regulated so that those who want them, get them with the least amount of suffering to bystanders.
And on the item you posted, isn't that exactly what is always done to get people to agree about something. If you want the general public's support for something, then stir them up with mass media coverage.
More on this later, I run into my word limit if I say everything I have to say in one post.



Last edited by Morwen Oronor, 2/6/2009, 11:13 pm
2/6/2009, 11:07 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


quote:

If the right to life covers all human life, then, this ought to include the lives of those who kill.

I'd disagree. The murderer gives up that right when he takes it from someone else.
quote:

As your religion guides your morality, other peoples' morality is what their conscience tells them. I feel that in matters of conscience, we should go with what we 'feel' is right,

And the Bible records a terrible time in human history, when there was no king, and everyone did what was right in his own eyes.
And what happens when my morality collides with another's morality?


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Love divine, crucified, made alive,
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2/7/2009, 1:44 am Link to this post Send PM to
 
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Re: The sanctity of life


If the sanctity of life is so important, I wonder about the happenings in Zimbabwe, and the sanctity of life there about which nobody seems to care a continental hoot.
Life is cheap and unworthy and uncared for all over the world ... just a comment apropos of nothing other than a quick thought flashing into my head right now!

Last edited by Petal Alderin, 2/7/2009, 5:04 am


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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


quote:

Order ofMelchizedek wrote:

quote:

I The murderer gives up that right when he takes it from someone else.


Why can't the murderer rather make restitution. If you kil someone, you become responsible for the earnings and everything the family lost as a result of that murder. This is the way that it worked in Africa until white people came with their prisons. Locking people up for the things they've done wrong is stupid. If you deliberately do something wrong, then you have to make it right is a far better way of handling crime.
And if you're beyond being able to make it right, then the family of the wronged person should be allowed to decide your fate.
I watch a lot of television about the justice system in America which is the one that most western countries are following. I find situations like the following ridiculous.
A man commits a murder and leaves evidence of the murder in his house.
Someone, another person, finds the evidence and reports it to the police. The police follow up the lead and go to the man's house where they find the evidence.
The evidence is disallowed in the court trial, because the police didn't get a warrant to search the man's house, even though they did everything else completely by the book, the murderer goes free.
Where is the justice in this system. Better to take the people who have been wronged to the murderer's house and allow them to decide what should be done with [sign in to see URL] they are prepared to live with hanging him in a tree for all his friends and family to see, so be it. All the nonsense of overcrowded jails and the violence etc that happens in them, that would all come to an end if people were allowed to extract personal justice.
I'm sure that this is what was meant by the biblical rules on crime and punishment, not some long drawn-out process where the victims are made to look like criminals for trying the extract justice themselves.
[quote And the Bible records a terrible time in human history, when there was no king, and everyone did what was right in his own eyes.
And what happens when my morality collides with another's morality?


Then the decision should be what the majority would do. If it is a matter of personal morality, it ought to be no one's business of your own. But if it's a public matter, then the majority should rule.
For example, I don't think there's anything immoral about men and women living together without marriage. A religious person might see it as a sin. Who's right. Whatever is right for you is right.
But say for example a matter of public morality. It is not right to urinate in public, even if you are personally not embarrassed, it is not something that other people should be forced to see. It might be ok in your culture but it's not right in everybody's culture and the majority of people think it's not right, therefore it is against the decision of the majority, so it should not be allowed.

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