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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


Thanks for sharing that Iris, I'm pleased to hear it.
You see my big problem is that everybody relies on churches to do everything. Life ought to be protected, you know that I feel that way, that I am against the destruction of life to the point where my conscience won't allow me to eat meat.
But it absolutely kills me to see that so many people in the world say that 'life is sacred' but that it seems that only applies to first-world, privileged lives that have something to contribute to the wealth of their communities and not the under-developed world and the lives of ordinary people.
I watched the movie "Lions for Lambs" yesterday and I was struck by the conversation that the student has with Robert Redford's character when it was said that the privileged, the politicians and the wealthy never send their children to war, a generalisation I know, because a lot of wealthy people's children are in Iraq but in general, armies are populated by the poor, and the jobless because their lives are not as valuable as those people who have influence and it seems to me that the people of Zim's lives are just as valueless.
But I'm pleased to hear about how the churches work in Africa, but they shouldn't be alone in that work, we could spend, in our country, a lot less on a navy, and on politicians' travel and a lot more to help the poor of our own land and the people who are fleeing to us from Zimbabwe.
2/13/2009, 12:59 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: The sanctity of life


quote:

Iris Overhill wrote:



MO it is difficult to make a huge impact. Our voices are small and we do what we can. Anyway we don't need everyone to know what we are doing because doing the right thing doesn't need recognition. We do it because we love God and his people. In a nutshell life is sacred and we condemn what's happening when people are dying to satisfy the greed of people in power.



Well put Iris.

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John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


This thread got a bit side-tracked by what churches do for the poor and for places like Zimbabwe, can I please bring it back to the actual subject matter of the thread which was about the whether life really is to be protected and I quote my last post on the subject:

quote:

If the frontal lobe is gone and only the breathing function is left, is it not cruel to force a feeding tube down the person's throat and force feed them to keep them alive when there is nothing there anymore.
The Catholics believe that the last rites must be given when someone is dying and that a deathbed 'confession' is enough to ensure entry into heaven. But what happens when the person has Alzheimers and the brain is slowly losing all cognitive function? Is this person still capable of sinning? And at what point does the person cease to exist if they are being kept alive artificially.
And making someone 'die naturally' i.e. from starvation with all the horrible things that happen to someone dying of starvation, convulsions etc,, is that not far more cruel and inhuman than giving them a morphine overdose? We don't force murderers - serial killers and so on - to starve to death, we give them some lethal injections, yet we force Alheimers sufferers, sometimes people who have lead exemplary lives to die in this truly horrible way. All because of respect for 'the sanctity of life'.



Can someone who believes that euthanasia is a sin answer this for me?
2/13/2009, 7:34 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: The sanctity of life


It's not an easy thing to make a conclusion about.
It's along the same lines as aborting a baby because it has Down's Syndrome so it doesn't have to go though having a terrible quality of life.

The question is when is a person not a person anymore? When someone is in a vegetative state does their soul leave their body? I don't know. Is a baby a human being at the moment of conception or just a group of cells? Does it have a soul.
Only God knows these things so I try not to speculate too much.
I don't think Science could ever answer these questions.

Gotta run. Will continue this thread later.

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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


Thank you for giving a reasonable argument. I really appreciate that rather than a straight-out "it's just wrong". I don't know if I could ever sanction an abortion for whatever means, personally. I feel if you can't live with the consequences, don't engage in the activity. but. if I had to deal with a baby that was extremely damaged in every way after the birth, I would be inclined to consider a kind euthanasia. I don't think that severely brain-damaged people, and especially if they are completely unaware of their surroundings, if asked to live like that would want to. And I don't believe that families and healthy children in a family benefit from parents being on constant demand by an unresponsive member.
In the same way, I think it is cruel to inflict a vegetative state on an old person who was previously an active, contributing member of a family.
I know that I don't want to be kept alive without my brain. I could lose everything and I wouldn't be concerned but being kept alive artificially to satisfy some misguided belief that my life is sacred, that is just obscene.
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Re: The sanctity of life


This really is an ethical argument. You know a lot of the time the Bible can be taken out of context. In the Ten Commandments the command “Thou shalt not murder” is often translated incorrectly as “Thou shalt not kill” The Hebrew word in the original text is murder.
Murder is to end someone’s life out of hatred for that person. It is pre-meditated even if done at the last minute. It is just plain wrong. However not all killing is murder. If you kill an intruder in your house because he has a gun to your child’s head you are defending your family. I think most people would think nothing of defending a loved one in a situation like that. If you pull the trigger with hatred in your heart, it is murder. But if you truly have only good intentions of saving your child’s life then you killed for the right reason. Only God would have known your true motives and will judge you on that.

It’s a fine line to walk. It must be an extremely difficult situation to be in as a family member. Are you pulling the plug because you love that person or are you really just doing it for yourself? I’m just speculating here… Do we really have the right to make that kind of decision for another person? (Not taking living wills into account)
I can’t judge anybody else’s decision. I have never been there myself and I’m sure it’s far from easy.
If we turn off the machines because we feel like we are releasing that person from suffering, does it make it right? I don’t know.

I also think that a lot of the time when parents choose to abort their babies who have a medical problem it’s because they don’t want to have to deal with the problem. It is obviously going to seriously interfere with their lives as well.

I just feel that everybody deserves the chance to have life. None of us have a perfect life, even if we have no physical or mental disabilities or health problems, but we love living and I think most people would agree that life is precious and worth the heartache that comes with it. I feel like being alive is a great privilege. A gift.

We only have one chance here so I would fight to keep that and make the most of it.

But at the end of the day, nobody can judge another for the decisions they make.
There is right and there is wrong, but we all have a choice. That’s the beauty of it. We are not forced to do anything.
It’s true what you say MO. As long as you are willing to live with the consequences of that choice, that’s what life is all about.
I just pray that I will never be in a situation where I have to make a choice like that.


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2/16/2009, 3:08 am Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: The sanctity of life


I have reservations on the taking a life for whatever reason. Even i self-defence I would prefer to injure rather than kill.
But, even so, I think that it is far more immoral to keep someone alive for decades simply because the family hope for a cure, or to keep someone on artificial life support to satisfy a personal belief in the sanctity of life.
Having lost a few people very close to me I know how painful death is and especially the death of a parent.
I only hope that if the decision has to be made about me, that my family will respect all my wishes regarding my death, i.e. not to take heroic measures to preserve my life if there is no value, to pull the plug when there is no more hope and finally not to spend money on a funeral especially any religious rituals.
I think that is the most respectful way to deal with the decision at that time, i.e. to respect the wishes of the almost departed.

Last edited by Morwen Oronor, 2/16/2009, 8:43 am
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Re: The sanctity of life


quote:

Morwen Oronor wrote:

This thread got a bit side-tracked by what churches do for the poor and for places like Zimbabwe, can I please bring it back to the actual subject matter of the thread which was about the whether life really is to be protected and I quote my last post on the subject:

quote:

If the frontal lobe is gone and only the breathing function is left, is it not cruel to force a feeding tube down the person's throat and force feed them to keep them alive when there is nothing there anymore.
The Catholics believe that the last rites must be given when someone is dying and that a deathbed 'confession' is enough to ensure entry into heaven. But what happens when the person has Alzheimers and the brain is slowly losing all cognitive function? Is this person still capable of sinning? And at what point does the person cease to exist if they are being kept alive artificially.
And making someone 'die naturally' i.e. from starvation with all the horrible things that happen to someone dying of starvation, convulsions etc,, is that not far more cruel and inhuman than giving them a morphine overdose? We don't force murderers - serial killers and so on - to starve to death, we give them some lethal injections, yet we force Alheimers sufferers, sometimes people who have lead exemplary lives to die in this truly horrible way. All because of respect for 'the sanctity of life'.



Can someone who believes that euthanasia is a sin answer this for me?



Can I try and answer this? For me all life has value and therefore to take the life of a person is a serious matter. My daughter has autism and her IQ is 45. There are those scientist and "thinkers" who believe in bio and situational ethics. It is from these ideas, which came from the USA, which bascially says who is worthy of living and who is a drain on society and should be disposed of for the good of the many. You will see this played out if we ever have a pan epidemic. There is already lists in place of who gets the vaccines and who goes w/o. The diabled and elderly are at the bottom of the list. They would be barred from getting medical attention. Remember Hitler, long before going after the jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and JWs, put in place widespread killing of all the mentally diseased and infirmed in Germany. Yes, given the right circumstances, it could happen again. That is one reason that the lives of the dying should be protected. That doesn't mean that if you take granny off life support cause she is brain dead you are some kind of monster. I am just saying that one needs to tread very carefully in this area. It can become a slippery slope very easily.

The second point I would like to make is this: when I was a child I was molested by my GF. He came down with cancer and had a very lingering and bad death. I believe that God was giving him every attempt to face what he had done and repent. I do not know if that occurred. I want to believe that even in a coma God was working on his heart. I know non believers will think that idea is silly but that is how I think. This is why I am against captial punishment. I do not want to end someone's life before God is finished working on their hearts. I don't want to be reponsible for them dying unforgiven. If they choose that fine but I will not chose it for them.

I hope this want too rambling or silly.


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Friendship is precious, not only in the shade, but in the sunshine of life. ~Thomas Jefferson
2/17/2009, 9:49 am Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Yahoo IM
 
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Re: The sanctity of life


No opinion is ever silly. What you feel is what is right for you.
I'm so sorry you were betrayed by someone you trusted, that is horrible for any child to have to experience.
I agree with everything you say morally.
I think that all science should be available to everyone who needs help. I would go to the extreme of saying that every healthy person should be an organ donor, so that their death can help other people who need help to live.
I don't believe in the death penalty either because I believe that it is immoral to commit murder when you are carrying out a death sentence, a bit like hitting a kid for hitting another kid. But I digress.
I only believe in euthanasia at the very end of a life if someone is on the brink of death and there is absolutely nothing more that can be done to give them any quality of life.
I don't believe in abortion either but i do believe that people should make up their own minds about it and if they want to have an abortion and there is a properly trained person who can live with having done it, it's better than some dirty backstreet where it's only done for money.
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