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Petal Alderin Profile
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Re: Preaching Thread


Well that's a relief! emoticon
I see what you mean - thanks Mel!

Having a problem with my computer so am using EW's laptop at the moment, but might not be able to log in for a while until it's fixed - just so you know.

 emoticon

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9/28/2009, 2:40 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Preaching Thread


 emoticon I was just going to point that out to Petal....
[sign in to see URL] of Albert Einsteins famous Quotes...
quote:

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."


Most definitely a scientist and Christian...

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9/28/2009, 2:45 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Preaching Thread


He wasn't a Christian at all. He was a [url=[sign in to see URL]

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9/28/2009, 9:14 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Preaching Thread


Bummee, if you don't want to be preached at, then why are you in the preaching thread, in a forum that is dedicated to discussing Christianity? For someone who claims to not want to argue, you sure as heck seem to like stirring things up. emoticon

And if you've really made peace with anything, then why do you act so agitated all the time? You might try making peace with yourself, then you might start learning how to make peace with others.

quote:

quote:

I believe that Christ did live and he was a very good person.

Anything more than that? He claimed to be God, so if He's not, then He couldn't really be a good person.
Liar, Lunatic or Lord - which one do you think He is?


The bible claims that Jesus called himself God. This doesn't prove that Jesus lived, much less what he might have claimed if he did live.

Even if we were to find Roman records someday that talked about a man named Jesus, who was born into the Jewish culture, went around preaching stuff the Jews didn't like, was crucified next to two criminals, and whose body disappeared after a few days, this still wouldn't prove that he was resurrected or even claimed to be God.

If we did have this Roman evidence I speak of, the most likely scenario would be that a man named Jesus was born into the Jewish culture, went around preaching stuff the Jews didn't like, was crucified next to two criminals, his body disappeared after a few days, and all sorts of wild stories were later attributed to this man.

We have no extra-biblical evidence to show that he ever claimed to be God. However, if he existed, and if he did make that claim, that wouldn't necessarily make him a bad person. He very well could have believed he was God, or merely the son of God, or he may have only said he was "a" son of God along with everyone else, and the story in the bible could be a misinterpretation of what he really said... if he even existed, and if he said anything even remotely like that.

Even with newspapers, magazines, books, radio, TV, and now the internet, we still hear all sorts of untrue stories about real people, and it's often hard to distinguish between what's true and what's not. Even more so with the internet, thousands upon thousands of people can spread the same un-true stories, which the general public will easily believe if they don't have a way to verify otherwise. Why, then, is it so difficult to imagine that a handful of writers, living in very superstitious times, could have gotten it wrong on a few things, if not a good many things?

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9/28/2009, 9:53 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Preaching Thread


quote:

his body disappeared after a few days, and all sorts of wild stories were later attributed to this man.

Wild stories that eyewitnesses were willing to die for rather than recant. There are some who would die for what they strongly believe, but none who would die for what they know is a lie. Eyewitnesses knew.
quote:

He very well could have believed he was God, or merely the son of God, or he may have only said he was "a" son of God along with everyone else,

And if it were not true, He would have fallen into either the liar or lunatic category. But if it was true, only then could He be considered Lord.

I found this to be an interesting, although long, article on refuting the idea that Jesus never existed.
[sign in to see URL]




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Do you not know? Have you not heard? He gives strength to the weary. To those who hope in Him, they will soar like eagles. -RSJ

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Re: Preaching Thread


Thanks Lesa:
quote:

He wasn't a Christian at all. He was a pantheist.


Well, I'll [sign in to see URL] can honestly say, I've never heard that phrase...... emoticon
I love the [sign in to see URL] learn something new every day! emoticon

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9/29/2009, 8:14 am Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Preaching Thread


I don't know that Einstein was a pantheist, or a ]panantheist, either for that matter. The idea is debatable. It seems that he somewhat followed what is known as the "God of Spinoza", which may or may not be pantheism.

He was raised Jewish, but not really practicing, like a lot of people who claim belief but don't really do anything with it. He obviously opposed atheism, from the quote earlier. Here's an interesting site on some of Einstein's beliefs.
[sign in to see URL]

He once stated, "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."
I think that's a good basis and reason for scientific study.



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Do you not know? Have you not heard? He gives strength to the weary. To those who hope in Him, they will soar like eagles. -RSJ

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Re: Preaching Thread


quote:

Wild stories that eyewitnesses were willing to die for rather than recant. There are some who would die for what they strongly believe, but none who would die for what they know is a lie. Eyewitnesses knew.


How can you be absolutely certain there were eyewitnesses? The only place I've seen this claim was in the Bible.

quote:

quote:

He very well could have believed he was God, or merely the son of God, or he may have only said he was "a" son of God along with everyone else,


And if it were not true, He would have fallen into either the liar or lunatic category. But if it was true, only then could He be considered Lord.


What if he claimed to be "a" son of God and people misunderstood?

quote:

I found this to be an interesting, although long, article on refuting the idea that Jesus never existed.
[sign in to see URL]


When I check out a new source, I generally like to check out other parts of their site to test their credibility. Here, I went to ]this page, where I didn't need to go past the 2nd paragraph to know how wrong (misinformed?) they are:
quote:

But there's one more thing left to talk about when we think about the teapot. Say there's no teapot around the sun, then what *is* there? I'd assume empty space.


It would be ignorant to assume such a thing, because there is more than just "empty space" in the universe. There could be gasses, dark matter, or all sorts of things there instead of a teapot, so assuming any one thing would be ridiculous.

I also read what they said about the Testimonium. While their removal of a few phrases does remove the "A Jew wouldn't say that" argument, there is still the simple fact that its very placement within the text disrupts the flow of the writing.

quote:

Mel wrote:

He obviously opposed atheism, from the quote earlier.

quote:

His quote:

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."


Einstein's "religion" was his awe of nature and the universe. It was this awe that drove him to understand as much as he could about it, and the more he learned about nature and the universe, the more awe-struck he became.

Without that awe of nature, studying it would be just another job, no more exciting than flipping burgers or pushing a broom. That's pretty much all he was saying in the first half of that quote.

It's hard to explain this to someone who has never experienced a spiritual-like awe from an atheist's perspective, but Richard Dawkins has that same spiritual-like awe about nature, and we all know he isn't opposed to atheism.

I do appreciate the fact that you realize he wasn't a subscriber to any of the Abrahamic religions. A lot of apologists take his use of religious terminology and assume it meant he believed in an all-knowing, all-powerful god.

quote:

He once stated, "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details."


Did you get that from Ray Comfort's blog? That guy really does love his quote-mining. emoticon

Einstein was always looking for a grand unifying theory, to tie all other theories together. A force, if you will, that unified all other forces. This is what he called God, and the "mind" of this God was the great (natural) law he imagined should govern all other natural laws. It's easy to see how the religious could mistake this for something it's not, especially when he used religious terminology so often to describe his thoughts.

Take it from an atheist who will sometimes refer to her "soul" in certain company, who knows not to take it literally. Sometimes, a feeling is so profound that even spiritual terminology doesn't suffice, but we use it because it's the best terminology we can come up with to describe it. That doesn't make us believers. That just means we have strong emotions that we wish to express.

quote:

Queeny wrote:

Thanks Lesa:
quote:

He wasn't a Christian at all. He was a pantheist.


Well, I'll [sign in to see URL] can honestly say, I've never heard that phrase...... emoticon
I love the [sign in to see URL] learn something new every day! emoticon


Glad to be of service, Queeny. emoticon

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9/29/2009, 8:44 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Preaching Thread


I can completely understand anyone feeling a 'spirituality' in nature. I stood on the road looking up at some of the most exquisite mountain scenery in the world in the Highlands of Scotland and felt so moved, that I cried.
The beauty of the scenery was that overwhelming. Did I see the hand of God in their creation, not at all. I know how mountains are formed by the movement of the earth's continents over millions of years and it is the feeling of insignificance in the evidence of the age of the planet and the short time that I will spend on it that gets to me.
I felt like this again when I looked at the kind of magnificent craftsmanship that men were capable of 1,000 years ago when they started building the great cathedrals. They are a testament to how man under-estimates his own significant contribution to the earth's history when he can see what he is capable of but uses that talent to glorify a deity rather than to build comfortable homes for the people who share his talent.
]Look at this.
The cathedral was started in 909 BCE and in my opinion, is one of the most beautiful in the world today.
My wonder is that if you are capable of building something this grand, then why do the people who are working on the building live in the veritable slums around it.?
They're not slums anymore today but they were when the cathedral was being built. The Bishop's Palace attached to the cathedral and all the various religious buildings in its surrounds are magnificent and are now protected by various governmental bodies. Quite magnificent! Now imagine if the people who built these had used their talent to build great cities to rival Rome and had encouraged learning and scientific questioning. How developed would we be today?
I want to comment on the idea of 'empty space' quoted above and Lesa's response that space is not empty, it is full of gasses and debris that are too small to be seen with the naked eye.
The idea that space is empty is typical of someone who is uneducated in the idea that because something can't be seen with the naked eye, it's not there. I had an experience of this yesterday with the woman who cleans my house. We've had huge amounts of rain in the last few days, which she collected in buckets to use in her home. Normally she has to walk to the neighborhood tap to collect water, or she gets it from the river. She was amazed when I cautioned her to boil the water before drinking it.
Although the scientists at the US Dept of Energy say that rainwater is safe for drinking, most of them caution that it may be wise to boil it first because of the pollutants and 'acid' in the atmosphere. Eunice said I'm crazy, it's lovely crystal clear water why should it not be safe to drink. You see, she can't see what's in the water, not only the water itself but the buckets she left outside overnight to collect the water. Because she can't see contaminants with her naked eye, she believes they don't exist.
I would love to show her what's actually in the water under a microscope, I wonder if she'd believe me then.
9/29/2009, 11:23 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Preaching Thread


quote:

Did you get that from Ray Comfort's blog? That guy really does love his quote-mining.

emoticon No, I got it from the link right above where I quoted it.

You hang out at Comfort's blog? Should've figured - Atheist Central. Isn't it almost a requirement if you call yourself an atheist?

I didn't thoroughly check out the Frontline website, but figured you wouldn't like it much. Are there any opposing views that you would respect, even though you still disagree with them?



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Do you not know? Have you not heard? He gives strength to the weary. To those who hope in Him, they will soar like eagles. -RSJ

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