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Re: The Good Person Test


quote:

Petal Alderin wrote:

Erika please start a movie or entertainment topic so that we can talk about that sort of thing here but not in the Good Person thread?

Sounds as though your new heart-throb is a good person! What about Erik??????



Thats what Casperia Prime is for emoticon


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9/4/2008, 10:36 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: The Good Person Test


I was looking back through this thread and how horribly derailed and off topic it became, quite early on. Anyway, I found this question that had gone unanswered, so I thought I'd give an explanation.
quote:

Morwen Oronor wrote:

Repent what? Be saved from what? I'm not being threatened so that I need saving.

And what does this mean:

quote:

Apparently, it's really convicting some of your consciences.


First of all, "Repent what?" Repentance is one of a couple of things that need to be done. Repent means that you acknowledge your sins against God (and I know that you do not, Morwen, but stick with me here in explaining).
Looking through the Ten Commandments, we see what God's moral standard is. We see that we fall short of His standard, and we know we've done wrong (see Matt 5, where Jesus clarified the Law in the NT. You even quoted part of that chapter in another thread. emoticon )

We all know that lying (#9) is wrong, stealing (#8) and adultery (#7) are wrong. Yet, who among us can claim to be sinless? None of us can keep this simple outline of God's Law perfectly, there are none found righteous, not one. That was never the intent of the Law, that anyone could keep it, but it's intent was to show us our NEED of a Savior.
Our need to repent - to acknowledge and turn away from the wrong we've done, rather than attempting to justify ourselves like hypocrites.

Now then, "saved from what?" I'll tell you, saved from the wrath of God that abides upon you, to be revealed on the day of judgment. You see, we've all broken God's Law, and for that we deserve punishment. The wages of sin is death - the second death, which is eternal torment in hell. We are unworthy and none of the "good" things we've done can earn our way into heaven, none of it erases the lawlessness in our past, and we are not capable of working our way into God's good graces.

That brings us to the second thing that needs to be done, after repentance. The fine must be paid, and God has provided a way, only one way, to pay that fine for us. Jesus Christ came down in human form, lived a perfect life, keeping all of the Law. Then He suffered and died on the cross, taking on the punishment that we deserve. It wasn't just physical, it was the very wrath of the Father against all sin. This is not some kind of automatic payment so that people can continue in their sins. So, fIrst we must repent, then we must trust in Jesus Christ alone for His payment for us. Then we will submit to Him as Lord, and obey His commands.

"Convicting the conscience" is a term that means you are understanding that you've done wrong, that you've sinned against God, and feeling your guilt before Him. It is not a pleasant feeling, and many attempt to bury this feeling, fighting against it rather than acknowledging it, searing their conscience, in an attempt to justify themselves by comparing themselves to others. But we won't be judged by man's standards, we'll be judged by God's standards, and we've all fallen short. Your own conscience testifies against you, "con" means "with" and "science" means "knowledge" and when you sin against God, you do it with knowledge and you are left without excuse. Many will deny His very existance in order to escape, but that doesn't change the truth at all.

Now, I know you won't agree with any of this, but maybe you'll understand what the terms mean, and how it might make sense to one who believes.

---

I'm running out of time, to live
Running out of love, to give
Running out of life, within
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10/16/2008, 3:47 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
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Re: The Good Person Test


Now you're preaching at me directly, I tell you what you mind your own sins and I'll live happily without mine.

10/16/2008, 10:59 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: The Good Person Test


Just answering your question.



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I'm running out of time, to live
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10/16/2008, 11:25 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
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Re: The Good Person Test


How can a person go through this test and still consider themselves to be "good"?



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I'm running out of time, to live
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Running out of life, within
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10/27/2008, 2:51 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
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Re: The Good Person Test


I tell you what I'll do Mel, to give you a fair chance at a non-confrontational discussion. I'll analyze your 'good' person test, and point out where it is a 'good' test and where it is 'bad'.

And let's leave God out of this discussion for once. I don't believe but you do, so if I'm prepared to meet you in the Neutral Zone where my disbelief and your belief can be put on hold for one post, then you can do it too. I'm not suggesting that you give up your belief although I'm prepared to pocket my disbelief for one post, you don't have to, all you have to do is look at a reasonable argument from a reasonable point of view. I think that's fair enough.
10/27/2008, 11:02 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: The Good Person Test


I'm going to look at these from a psychologist's point of view on the one hand but I have to ask the question. If according to people who believe in the New Testament, Jesus did away with the old commandments and gave 'a new commandment' (John 13:34)
quote:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.



then surely the 10 commandments don't really apply anymore and all the laws are wrapped up in this one sentence?

Having said that from the point of view of a psychologist, all the 'sins' you quote can be dealt with psychologically and they are seen as behaviors outside what is considered 'normal'

quote:

• Have you ever told a lie? What does that make you? A liar. This violates the 9th Commandment, and the Bible tells us that all liars will have their place in the lake of fire.



I don't lie. I tell the truth and I have an abhorrence of lies, but I accept that people do lie and there is usually a good explanation for it. If you asked me if I like the dress you are wearing, I'm likely to say 'yes' if I do but if I do like it, I wouldn't have to be asked because I usually say that I like something before I'm asked in order to avoid having to be truthful or to tell a lie. So if I don't like it and you ask, I am likely to so 'no, not particularly, but if you do enjoy it".
But why do people, and particularly children lie - to get out of trouble. So if you want to avoid being lied to, don't create the environment for lying. If you are over-strict with your chldren, they will lie to you. If you place too high expectations on your children, they will lie to you. So if you want to avoid them lying, try to be a bit mroe forgiving.


quote:

• Have you ever stolen anything, no matter how small? A piece of candy as a kid, a pen from work? Anything? What does that make you? A thief and it means that you've violated the 8th Commandment, and probably the 10th as well, because you would have coveted it before you actually stole it. There will be no thieves in heaven.



We had a long discussion on this one previously about hungry people stealing food etc. Of course everybody has taken something that disn't belong to them at least once, why is that such a terrible thing? Strictly speaking, I would fire anyone working for me if they stole from me but I understand the reasons why people steal. Why do children steal? Usually again because their parents are too strict and don't trust them and don't allow them to think for themselves. Over-protective domineering parents encourage stealing when they don't allow their children to have money of their own to buy the things they want. If you want a child to stop stealing from you, give him pocket-money.

quote:

• Have you ever used God's Name in vain? Just cried it out as an expletive? That's called blasphemy. It's a transgression of the 3rd Commandment and a very serious offense.
Do you realize what you've done? You've used the Creator of the universe's holy Name as a curse word to express disgust instead of a four letter filth word. Hitler's name is not so despised to be used in such a way!



Nothing wrong with an expletive in the right place. This is a stupid old-fashioned law designed to make people afraid of gods they couldn't see. The Greeks used it with the same effect when they forbade people using the name of Zeus as an expletive. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. We all need to get over the fear of the words that make us feel a helluva lot better for using them.

quote:

• The 7th Commandment is you shall not commit adultery.
Now, you might say, "I'm not even married" but did you know this command includes fornication (pre-marital sex) as well?
In fact, Jesus says that if you merely look with lust, you've already committed adultery in your heart. So, have you ever done that?



Come on if God intended you not to desire your wife the minute you met her, he should've not made sex so much pleasure. If it wasn't fun, people wouldn't do it. Nothing wrong at all about seeing a person you like and wanting to spend the rest of your life swinging from the chandeliers with them, this is not adultery it's God's own best gift.

quote:

• You may say, "I've never murdered anyone." But if you've ever hated anyone, God sees it as murder in your heart and you're guilty of breaking the 6th Commandment. Yes, even your thoughts will be judged on Judgment Day.


Hate, like jealousy is a stupid emotion because it doesn't affect the object of your hatred. Psychologically, hate and jealousy are indications of feelings of being less than others. So it's not 'wrong' to hate or feel jealous, just something you need to get over and if you feel that your inadequacies and insecurities are strong enough to want to take someone out, then you need pyschological help, not religion. And does killing not apply to animals. I felt so strongly about my dog killing a monkey last week, that it's put me off meat altogether. I haven't felt the same about eating meat since I saw that. In my present state of mind (and I know that it's only post-traumatic stress and will eventually go away) I can't bring myself to eat anything that was killed to feed me. So I put killing animals right up there with the strictures on killing. And also this is proof that inherently, we are revolted by killing. It is not natural. If killing doesn't revolt you, you need to see a therapist, not religion.

quote:

• Have you always honored your parents as they should be honored? That's number 5.
• Have you kept the Sabbath? That's number 4. God gave you your very life, have you ever stopped to consider what He might require of you one day out of seven?



As a psychologist, if peole tel me their kids don't respect them, I would tell them it's because they don't respect themselves. We naturally respect people who command (not demand) our respect.

quote:

• Have you always put God first in your life? That's the 1st and most important Commandment.

• Or have you created a god for yourself in your mind, fashioned after your own image? One that doesn't see pre-marital sex or a little white lie as wrong? One that won't hold you accountable and thus breaking the 2nd Commandment as well?



This one about own image is a circular argument. God created man in his own image, therefore man can worship himself. And what gods do people create? Is protecting your home against burglary making a 'god' of your home? Is protecting the assets you've worked a lifetime for and the money you've set aside to avoid having to take money from the government in your old age making an 'idol' of money?
This is just a nonsense one again put there to make people afraid enough of eternal damnation to rather give their money to greedy priests rather than keep it for themselves and their own use.

Sorry but I don't see anything wrong enough about any of the above to warrant anyone having to repent or burn in hellfire.
10/27/2008, 11:57 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: The Good Person Test


quote:

I tell you what I'll do Mel, to give you a fair chance at a non-confrontational discussion. I'll analyze your 'good' person test, and point out where it is a 'good' test and where it is 'bad'.

But who’s standard will you use in your analysis? What qualifies this standard?
quote:

If according to people who believe in the New Testament, Jesus did away with the old commandments and gave 'a new commandment' (John 13:34)
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.then surely the 10 commandments don't really apply anymore and all the laws are wrapped up in this one sentence?

Well, not exactly. What about this?
 
Matthew 5:18
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

 
I did post something on the OT Law right here on this board. You can check it out HERE if you missed it. This explains the moral Law which still stands, as it differs from the ceremonial Law, which was fulfilled, and the civil Law, which was given to human government.
 
Now, back to John 13:34. The command to love was not actually new.
Deut 6:5 commanded love for God, and Lev 19:18 commanded loving one’s neighbor as oneself (see Matt 22:36-40, Rom 13:8-10, Gal 5:14 and James 2:8 )
 
However, Jesus’ command regarding love presented a distinctly new standard for two reasons: It was a sacrificial love modeled after His own love and it is produced through the New Covenant by the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.

edited to fix formating


Last edited by Pastor Rick, 11/6/2008, 1:51 am


---

I'm running out of time, to live
Running out of love, to give
Running out of life, within
God help me --RSJ

10/28/2008, 12:17 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
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Re: The Good Person Test


quote:

Having said that from the point of view of a psychologist, all the 'sins' you quote can be dealt with psychologically and they are seen as behaviors outside what is considered 'normal'

So, it is your professional opinion that people who have lied, stolen, lusted or hated are exhibiting abnormal behavior? I would disagree, we are all sinful, and there is not one found righteous. But just because we’re all sinful and wicked at heart does not mean we don’t have a problem.
Now, you’ve stated this at the beginning, yet go through the entire test justifying each and every one, before concluding that there is nothing wrong with any of these. So which is it?
quote:

I don't lie. I tell the truth and I have an abhorrence of lies,

Do you mean to tell me that you’ve never lied before in your life? You’re not being honest with yourself. The most honest people I know will still admit to lying.

How about Pastor Rick, as an example? Pastor Rick, have you ever told a lie?
quote:

Of course everybody has taken something that disn't belong to them at least once, why is that such a terrible thing?

Because it doesn’t belong to them. I have had things stolen from me, and I don’t much care for it. You don’t have a problem with it? Could you give me your address?
quote:

Nothing wrong with an expletive in the right place. This is a stupid old-fashioned law designed to make people afraid of gods they couldn't see. The Greeks used it with the same effect when they forbade people using the name of Zeus as an expletive. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.

Really? I haven’t heard Zeus as a curse word in quite some time. It’s interesting that people don’t curse with the name of Buddha, isn’t it? Allah’s name isn’t used in this way. Neither are any of the 3 million Hindu gods names used as curse words.
Now, if it’s no big deal, would it be alright with you I were to use your spouse’s name in place of an expletive? Maybe your mothers name? How about your friend Petal, would that offend you at all?
quote:

Come on if God intended you not to desire your wife the minute you met her, he should've not made sex so much pleasure. If it wasn't fun, people wouldn't do it. Nothing wrong at all about seeing a person you like and wanting to spend the rest of your life swinging from the chandeliers with them, this is not adultery it's God's own best gift.

It is a gift, but only within the boundaries of marriage. And, since you mentioned God in this answer, I feel ok in telling you that the Bible says that sin is pleasurable for a season, yet the wages of sin is death.
quote:

Hate, like jealousy is a stupid emotion because it doesn't affect the object of your hatred.

But we’ve all felt it, haven’t we? And you’re right, it eats you up inside, causing more damage to the one who is harboring the hatred than to anyone else.
quote:

So I put killing animals right up there with the strictures on killing.

Actually, the word is "murder" and applies to humans. Killing for food is entirely different than murder.
quote:

And also this is proof that inherently, we are revolted by killing. It is not natural. If killing doesn't revolt you, you need to see a therapist, not religion.

Hmmmm, maybe you could explain the high rate of abortion to me then. But that would be a whole new topic.
quote:

As a psychologist, if peole tel me their kids don't respect them, I would tell them it's because they don't respect themselves.

That's pretty typical psychobabble, but I don't think it does much to solve the problem.
quote:

This one about own image is a circular argument. God created man in his own image, therefore man can worship himself.

Oh come now, that’s a bit of a stretch, wouldn’t you say? God created, man did nothing – what reason do we have to worship ourselves? That is the selfish humanist thinking that causes all sorts of problems.
quote:

And what gods do people create? Is protecting your home against burglary making a 'god' of your home?

Well, if there's really nothing wrong with theft, you wouldn’t have any need to protect your home against burglary.
quote:

Is protecting the assets you've worked a lifetime for and the money you've set aside to avoid having to take money from the government in your old age making an 'idol' of money?

It could be, but not necessarily.
quote:

This is just a nonsense one again put there to make people afraid enough of eternal damnation to rather give their money to greedy priests rather than keep it for themselves and their own use.

I really don’t buy this tired old argument. Greedy power hungry men made up this story to control the people, and the people were so stupid, almost all of them bought it! Come on, it’s actually quite the opposite. You know it’s wrong to lie, to steal, to commit adultery. God’s Law is written in your heart, your own conscience testifies against you when you do wrong, and people work hard at suppressing and searing their conscience in order to enjoy their sins guilt free.
No, it’s really the atheist worldview that is making the attempt at manipulation here.
quote:

Sorry but I don't see anything wrong enough about any of the above to warrant anyone having to repent or burn in hellfire.

But……. You’re not God.

---

I'm running out of time, to live
Running out of love, to give
Running out of life, within
God help me --RSJ

10/28/2008, 12:23 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
Petal Alderin Profile
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Re: The Good Person Test


Before I say anything further I'd like to know Mel please, where did the original questions for this so called Good Person Test come from? You say that they're based on the Ten Commandments. Fair enough - but who thought up the questions and on what basis and why?

And if it was something of your own doing, what gives you the right to think that you know all the answers and that those answers are the only correct ones?

And don't tell me that you have the right because they aren't your answers, they're God's answers or in the Bible - you wrote this and you have decided on what the answers are.




Last edited by Petal Alderin, 10/28/2008, 1:01 pm


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