The 10 Commandments https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/t95 Runboard| The 10 Commandments en-us Tue, 19 Mar 2024 09:26:54 +0000 Tue, 19 Mar 2024 09:26:54 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6575,from=rss#post6575https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6575,from=rss#post6575Maybe so, but there are those who will claim that Christianity is illogical and makes no sense. I believe that is incorrect. They may choose to disbelieve, and there are reasons for that, but Christianity hasn't crumbled in the last 2,000 years. There is more manuscript evidence for the Bible than any other work of antiquity, there are archaelogical finds that back it, and there is fulfilled prophecy within it. And yet people claim that they want "evidence". nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:24:41 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6568,from=rss#post6568https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6568,from=rss#post6568Again....those who believe will always believe, those who don't, most often never will......sort of makes the world go around. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Queenyforever)Wed, 09 Sep 2009 11:35:13 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6566,from=rss#post6566https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6566,from=rss#post6566Good questions! It comes down to man's sinful nature, we supress the truth, attempting to sear our conscience so that we can go ahead and sin without feeling guilty. Many like to claim that Christians are hypocrites. I would disagree. I say that HUMANS are hypocrites, it's not confined to Christianity. You're right, people will say that it's ok to lie in certain situations, but ask them when it's ok for them to be lied to, and you might expose some of that hypocricy... or more lies. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Wed, 09 Sep 2009 11:18:12 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6563,from=rss#post6563https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6563,from=rss#post6563And if it was put there on our hearts from the beginning, then why has from early man learning to walk upright, through the middle ages, to now.....kill his fellow kinsmen, over food, women, land, and religion...nondisclosed_email@example.com (Queenyforever)Wed, 09 Sep 2009 10:51:18 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6558,from=rss#post6558https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6558,from=rss#post6558Then why are there differences in our moral? For example that "all knot that it's wrong to lie". Many - or even most - people would say it's right to lie in some situations; when telling the truth would cause harm, but not help anyone. For some moral says that ends justify means, that you may do the principally wrong thing if it results to justice. Others say the moral thing to do is to strickly follow the rules, even when it only resulted to harm. If moral and conscience have been put by God in hearts of all men, how can we have so many entirely conflicting views on what's right and wrong?nondisclosed_email@example.com (Kaunisto)Wed, 09 Sep 2009 01:56:51 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6552,from=rss#post6552https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6552,from=rss#post6552Entrap and control? How do you explain that we all know that it's wrong to lie and murder? Where do our morals come from? If this were made up, it would be easier to ignore, and Christianity would have crumbled hundreds of years ago. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Tue, 08 Sep 2009 13:35:57 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6544,from=rss#post6544https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6544,from=rss#post6544Or made up and written in stone to entrap them, or written on paper to control them?nondisclosed_email@example.com (Queenyforever)Tue, 08 Sep 2009 10:26:25 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6511,from=rss#post6511https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6511,from=rss#post6511I don't know. So that there are two witnesses to God's law? Written in stone, yet people still deny them. Written on the heart, but people suppress their conscience. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Fri, 04 Sep 2009 16:13:29 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6510,from=rss#post6510https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6510,from=rss#post6510If they are written on our hearts, then why were they ever written in stone and translated by the many over the years?nondisclosed_email@example.com (Queenyforever)Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:25:36 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6508,from=rss#post6508https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6508,from=rss#post6508Ah, but no matter how they're divided, or how they're translated, these are also written on our hearts - we know it's wrong to lie, to steal, to commit adultery. We are left without excuse. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Fri, 04 Sep 2009 15:21:40 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6389,from=rss#post6389https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6389,from=rss#post6389Amen to that Now if we could just get the translators to stick to the text we could clear up tons on confusion on everyone's part nondisclosed_email@example.com (Pastor Rick)Fri, 28 Aug 2009 22:20:04 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6386,from=rss#post6386https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6386,from=rss#post6386Hey Pastor Rick! I don't think that how they're divided is all that important, it's all based on the same Biblical text. Scriptures do not say, "Here's Commandment #1, here's #2, etc" it just gives them. Different groups divide them differently, but the Biblical text remains the same. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Fri, 28 Aug 2009 12:49:03 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6382,from=rss#post6382https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6382,from=rss#post6382Hi Mel... this ain't fair because I have less than 3 minutes before I have to go My own opinion is that the Orthodox church has the division of the 10 commandments correct if you are basing it (the divisions) on the Hebrew text.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Pastor Rick)Fri, 28 Aug 2009 10:44:45 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6371,from=rss#post6371https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p6371,from=rss#post6371I was just reading through this old thread, some interesting stuff in here. So, here's some info on the OT Law in general, including the Ten Commandments and what applies today and why. With the authority of Scripture verses to back it, of course. The Law can be divided into three categories: Moral, Civil, and Ceremonial. The Ceremonial Laws (animal sacrifices, the Sabbath, etc) were pointing us to a comming Messiah, and were fulfilled in Jesus, so they no longer apply. Colossians 2:14-17 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; He took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. The Civil Laws were written to a specific people at a specific time and specific place and do not pertain to Christians under the New Covenant. The basic responsibility for this civil aspect of the Law, which shows the application of the moral Law within a community, has been transferred to human government. Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. The Moral Law finds its basis in the character of God and is presented in outline form in the Ten Commandments. It has never been revoked or abolished but finds its authority in the New Covenant. Every unbeliever is still under its requirement of perfection and its condemnation until he comes to Christ, and every believer still finds in it the standard for behavior. Romans 8:3-4 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. So, the Moral Law (the Ten Commandments) still stands and applies to our lives now, yet keeping the Law is not what saves us. It only shows us our need for a Savior. The Law is a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith (Gal 3:24). nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Thu, 27 Aug 2009 14:40:34 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1873,from=rss#post1873https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1873,from=rss#post1873I don't care because I feel that if you say that the Bible is the Word of God, then you should go with what the Bible says, irrespective of your religion, and both Genesis and Deuteronomy agree. So whatever each religion says, surely doesn't count. If you go with the idea that the Bible has the last word.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Morwen Oronor)Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:37:33 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1861,from=rss#post1861https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1861,from=rss#post1861The Ten Commandments are first found in Exodus 20:1-17. The same text is just divided differently between Catholic and Protestants. Here's how they come out, from an atheist site. quote:Abbreviated Protestant Ten Commandments: 1. You shall have no other gods but me. 2. You shall not make unto you any graven images 3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain 4. You shall remember the Sabbath and keep it holy 5. Honor your mother and father 6. You shall not murder 7. You shall not commit adultery 8. You shall not steal 9. You shall not bear false witness 10. You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor    Abbreviated Catholic Ten Commandments: 1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me. 2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain 3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day 4. Honor your father and your mother 5. You shall not kill 6. You shall not commit adultery 7. You shall not steal 8. You shall not bear false witness 9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife 10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods There's a nice little chart on Wiki showing the Division of the Ten Commandments by religion/denomination, but it all comes from the same text. Does that make sense? nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:22:26 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1821,from=rss#post1821https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1821,from=rss#post1821I don't see any difference in the text though between Genesis and Deuteronomy. Are you saying that the text was altered to exclude the idolatry bit. Then what else has been altered? I thought that the Bible I was taught from was the one and only Word of God and unalterable. Even if it is translated over and over again, the words do not alter their meaning? I'm not being facetious here I need to know when is it ok to remove an offensive bit? Also I went to a Dominican Convent, a very strict order, they would have taught us exactly what it said in the King James version which is the one they were using at that time. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Morwen Oronor)Thu, 04 Sep 2008 10:37:34 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1818,from=rss#post1818https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1818,from=rss#post1818Interesting that you would post the Protestant version instead of the Catholic one, if you were taught by nuns. The Catholic version leaves out #2, and divides #10 into "you shall not covet your neighbors property" and "you shall not covet your neighbors wife." Thus, the numbering is different, but comes from the same Biblical text. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Thu, 04 Sep 2008 10:27:29 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1790,from=rss#post1790https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1790,from=rss#post1790The nuns used to make us recite them, let's see what I can remember: 1. I am the lord they god who brought thee out of the land of egypt out of the house of bondage, though shalt have no other gods before me. 2. do not make unto thee any graven images ...blahblah blah 3. Thou shalt not take the name of the lord they god in vain...... 4. Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy and so on 5. Honor they father and thy mother that thy days may be long etc. 6. thou shalt not kill 7. thou shalt not commit adultery (although the nuns failed to explain what that meant. 8. thou shalt not steal 9. thou shalt not bear false witness 10. thou shalt not covet. I think that's the story they made us learn. Looking at Wikipedia, here, they show the catholic version, I don't see the idolatry thing, is this a problem with catholics and their statues and icons. I don't know enough to comment about that. But an interesting thing here too about Ancient History and the statues, the Romans used to have statues of their gods all over their houses so you can see the link between them with the church. Interesting. I thought.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Morwen Oronor)Thu, 04 Sep 2008 04:59:15 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1771,from=rss#post1771https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1771,from=rss#post1771I was just curious which numbering system is used in what countries, as there was recently on TV some movie called Sixth Commandment and the Finnish title was Fifth Commandment.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Kaunisto)Thu, 04 Sep 2008 02:16:02 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1722,from=rss#post1722https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1722,from=rss#post1722quote:Rick said: Lesa, it is OK to eat shrimp and lobster now, quote:Acts 10:11-15 That's right, I forgot all about Peter's dream while he was taking a nap on the rooftop, right before Paul's messengers showed up. Thanks for the reminder, Rick. It was supposed to be a way to tell Peter that it's ok to spread the message to Paul, when it wasn't ok for the gentiles to hear it before... or something like that, if memory serves correctly. Are you sure it was also meant literally and not just figuratively, though? If so, then how? I just love discussing the fine points in literature. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Lesigner Girl)Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:57:38 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1658,from=rss#post1658https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1658,from=rss#post1658quote:Kaunisto, I copied both from Wikipedia, and they seemed similar enough for me to make my point, I really am not inclined to got to the trouble of counting them, the gist is there. The Catholics divide them differently than the Protestants and the Jews, but the text is all there - Exodus 20:1-17. Lutherans might use the Catholic division of them, I'm not sure. quote:This is very interesting, because from history we know that Constantine declared Sunday, the Sun's day to be the day for all his soldiers to do their worshipping and we know that the Council of Nicaea was held in 325 which is when the management of church matters was handed over to the Church's Council. What "history" books are you reading, Morwen? Do you put as much faith into those as I do my Bible? I wonder which object of our respective faiths is more worthy - no, actually, I don't wonder at all. quote:Ok then if all things are possible with God, please make me walk again without pain, and I might believe you. No, no you wouldn't believe. Besides, why on earth would God do anything more for you than He's already done? Every breath you take is a gift from Him. He's provided evidence of His existence, and given you every good thing, yet you deny His very existence! quote:If you are a true believer, you should have a direct line to him. God is not a magic genie waiting for His creation to summon Him for their bidding. You might be mixing up Christianity with paganism. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:34:48 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1653,from=rss#post1653https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1653,from=rss#post1653Kaunisto, I copied both from Wikipedia, and they seemed similar enough for me to make my point, I really am not inclined to got to the trouble of counting them, the gist is there. quote:No, read your Bible, Morwen. (Acts 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2 ) The early Christians often met on the first day, the day of the resurrection. But no matter, Col 2:16 reveals that the Sabbath was fulfilled in Christ, so you can worship on whatever day you wish. This is very interesting, because from history we know that Constantine declared Sunday, the Sun's day to be the day for all his soldiers to do their worshipping and we know that the Council of Nicaea was held in 325 which is when the management of church matters was handed over to the Church's Council. What your quote proves to me as a historian is that Corinthians was written after that date. and it is verified by the second Scripture quote. Thank you you've proved another point of mine and that is that the New Testament was in fact written by the Catholic Church to validate the religion they took over and formalised. Woohoo.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Morwen Oronor)Wed, 03 Sep 2008 05:11:44 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1648,from=rss#post1648https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1648,from=rss#post1648Basically there are ten usually accepted Kaunisto.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Petal Alderin)Wed, 03 Sep 2008 02:22:41 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1646,from=rss#post1646https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1646,from=rss#post1646Which division of commandments do you all use? It's often a bit confusing in movies etc. that we (lutheran) seem to be one off in numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10_commandments#Division_of_the_Commandments nondisclosed_email@example.com (Kaunisto)Wed, 03 Sep 2008 02:19:12 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1644,from=rss#post1644https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1644,from=rss#post1644Ok then if all things are possible with God, please make me walk again without pain, and I might believe you. If you are a true believer, you should have a direct line to him.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Morwen Oronor)Wed, 03 Sep 2008 01:45:18 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1642,from=rss#post1642https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1642,from=rss#post1642I believe that all things are possible with God. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Wed, 03 Sep 2008 01:33:09 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1640,from=rss#post1640https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1640,from=rss#post1640quote:Order ofMelchizedek wrote: quote:The commandment does not[\b] say 'seventh day of the week'. It says 'seventh day'. Then go on to read the rest of what I have to say about counting days. The whole actual day worship was put in place by priests, not by God (if you believe there is a god of course). And when Constantine declared the Sun's day as the day of worship, the Christians in his army were still worshipping on Saturday. He changed it officially and not for the religious reasons that Christians believe. All the ideas of the early church came from paganism - Pontifex Maximus became the Pope, vestal virgins became nuns, and so on. I’m not Catholic, Morwen. The Bible says the early Christians met on the first day of the week. quote: I was analysing the commandment not the New Testament. So stick to the subject. It says 'six days' and on the 'seventh day' and then read what I said about day counting - and read it without the New Testament or religious bias, read it logically.  quote: Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say that rape was ever right. Oh, my mistake. You're forgiven   quote:I said that it is not regarded as wrong in some places on earth. Learn to read my posts properly. And you also said that your morals come from the “law of the land.” What am I supposed to think? {quote] I didn't say my morals come from the law of the land, I said I obey the law of the land, again read without bias towards religion. My morals are none of your business. quote:Murder is ok when your family is being attacked. That wouldn’t be murder. Yet it would be killing. They are different words. quote:Believe me if it was either Giv's life or some person breaking into my house, I would murder the intruder. But I will stress again, a mentally healthy person cannot murder another - there is no question about this, Hmmm, interesting. Do you have any training in psychology, I don't think so. Read up some psychology on the ability to kill and you will see that I am right. This is why it is wrong to put killers to death, they are not mentally 'healthy' and therefore should not be punished but should be treated by a mental health practitioner. But this is a subject for another thread. I am sure that I am correct when I say that you believe that the death penalty is right, and that it is not 'killing' or 'murder', but as I said that is a subject for another thread. quote: You covet a new car every time you buy one, otherwise why would you buy it. If you were content with any old jalopy, you could pat yourself on the back for that one. Sigh. Let me give you a link I think you will find very helpful. [url=http://dictionary.reference.com I don't need a definition of covet I know that it means to desire something you can't have or that doesn't belong to you. The car in the showroom belongs to the person who is going to sell it to you, therefore when you drool over it, that is being covetous, nothing wrong with that, I covet some of those gorgeous men on Manopolis too, and unashamedly, but then I don't believe in sin. quote: So judge not so that you may not be judged. Have I really judged you, or have I asked you to judge yourself? I’ll have to start a topic. I interpret all your proseletysing as judgment so don't pretend that you don't think you're holier than the res of us and that you see us as sinners needing conversion to your particular brand of insanity. quote:To conclude and I really won't budge on my analysis of these ridiculous laws I know you won’t. But it doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. quote: lying is not wrong, Ok then, we’ll just have to disagree on that one. I’m glad to know that you feel that way, though. quote:The book you keep throwing at me is full of lies, Then it should be ok in your view, right? quote:So don't tell me that lying is wrong, you do it all the time, Lying is wrong. Yes, I’ve lied before. And it’s still wrong. If lying is still wrong, then stop perpetuating the lies contained in that book. You believe it is possible to turn water into wine, and you believe it is possible for a hand on the head to heal leprosy, I should introduce you to our Minister of Health, she believes that eating garlic and beets will cure AIDS. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Morwen Oronor)Wed, 03 Sep 2008 01:29:48 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1632,from=rss#post1632https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1632,from=rss#post1632quote:The commandment does not[\b] say 'seventh day of the week'. It says 'seventh day'. Then go on to read the rest of what I have to say about counting days. The whole actual day worship was put in place by priests, not by God (if you believe there is a god of course). And when Constantine declared the Sun's day as the day of worship, the Christians in his army were still worshipping on Saturday. He changed it officially and not for the religious reasons that Christians believe. All the ideas of the early church came from paganism - Pontifex Maximus became the Pope, vestal virgins became nuns, and so on. I’m not Catholic, Morwen. The Bible says the early Christians met on the first day of the week. quote: Don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say that rape was ever right. Oh, my mistake. quote:I said that it is not regarded as wrong in some places on earth. Learn to read my posts properly. And you also said that your morals come from the “law of the land.” What am I supposed to think? quote:Murder is ok when your family is being attacked. That wouldn’t be murder. Yet it would be killing. They are different words. quote:Believe me if it was either Giv's life or some person breaking into my house, I would murder the intruder. But I will stress again, a mentally healthy person cannot murder another - there is no question about this, Hmmm, interesting. quote: You covet a new car every time you buy one, otherwise why would you buy it. If you were content with any old jalopy, you could pat yourself on the back for that one. Sigh. Let me give you a link I think you will find very helpful. dictionary.com quote: So judge not so that you may not be judged. Have I really judged you, or have I asked you to judge yourself? I’ll have to start a topic. quote:To conclude and I really won't budge on my analysis of these ridiculous laws I know you won’t. But it doesn’t mean that they’re wrong. quote: lying is not wrong, Ok then, we’ll just have to disagree on that one. I’m glad to know that you feel that way, though. quote:The book you keep throwing at me is full of lies, Then it should be ok in your view, right? quote:So don't tell me that lying is wrong, you do it all the time, Lying is wrong. Yes, I’ve lied before. And it’s still wrong. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Order ofMelchizedek)Wed, 03 Sep 2008 01:05:16 +0000 Re: The 10 Commandmentshttps://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1625,from=rss#post1625https://btimeandagain.runboard.com/p1625,from=rss#post1625To conclude and I really won't budge on my analysis of these ridiculous laws made by priests to protect themselves in a place where ignorant people outnumbered the ones with a modicum of education, lying is not wrong, it is not wrong to tell someone you truly love that they look ok when they've gone to a lot of trouble to dress up and you really don't like their outfit. To me a white lie is less than hurting a friend's feelings. And clothes don't count in my book anyway, friendship does. And it is Ok to lie when the people you are lying to are lower than snakes' bellies. Lying is also ok when you're a politician and you want to win a high place in government, because being a liar is part of the requirement for high office. That has always been the case and always will be. The book you keep throwing at me is full of lies, talking snakes, talking bushes, words engraved on stones by non-existent beings. As I said earlier, people with a little education have always used lies to control the ignorant among them. And it is still happening today, people who honestly believe the book is the truth perpetuate the lies every time they throw the words around. So don't tell me that lying is wrong, you do it all the time, in my opinion, and that of a whole lot of other well-educated people.nondisclosed_email@example.com (Morwen Oronor)Wed, 03 Sep 2008 00:28:37 +0000