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Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Redemptive Revenge


I know you don't like long quotes over here, but I'm gonna post this one anyway. I can't link to it, because I got it in an email, but it comes from RBC Ministries.
It's too good not to share. Maybe it will generate some discussion.
 
quote:

Romans 12:20
If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.

 
In "Rumors Of Another World", Philip Yancey tells a story that illustrates the kind of "revenge" Paul spoke about in Romans 12:20, when he said that showing kindness will "heap coals of fire on his head."

When Nelson Mandela became president of South Africa, he appointed a commission to bring to trial those who had been guilty of atrocities during the time of apartheid. Any white officer who voluntarily faced his accusers and confessed his guilt would not be punished. One day an aged woman was brought face-to-face with the officer who had brutally murdered her only son and her beloved husband. Asked what she wanted from him, she said, "Although I have no family, I still have a lot of love to give." She requested that he visit her regularly so she could mother him. Then she said, "I would like to embrace him so he can know that my forgiveness is real."

Yancey writes that as the elderly woman made her way to the witness stand, the officer became so overwhelmed with shame and remorse that he fainted. The pain that woman inflicted was not sinful revenge but the purifying fire of a God-given love that can lead to repentance and reconciliation.
That's redemptive revenge. - Herb Vander Lugt


What do you think of "redemptive revenge"? I don't think it could even really be called revenge, because that was clearly not the heart of the woman. The revenge was inflicted by the conviction that the man felt, in the knowledge and remorse for what he had done.


---
The cynics and the saints, the famous and unnamed, one day will all fall before You, but I'm gonna bow today... --RSJ
10/10/2008, 1:06 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
Petal Alderin Profile
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Re: Redemptive Revenge


I'd very much like to know where this Yancey fellow got his facts from - and which source he used for the story about Nelson Mandela, please.

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Re: Redemptive Revenge


So would I that didn't happen at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission as far as I know.
Also there is nothing religious in the public life in South Africa. There is no talk of 'redemption'. The TRC was merely a platform for the people who were wronged to come out and talk about the wrong that was done to them and for those who committed crimes during Apartheid to ask for amnesty.
I don't know what he's talking about with people fainting. I'd really like to know where he got his story.
And Nelson Mandela didn't appoint the TRC it was a joint government proposal for a way to bring the perpetrators of crimes against humanity out of hiding without being prosecuted for their crimes. We didn't want a witch hunt and a Nuremburg-style trial here, we just wanted all the criminal activities of the various officials in the Justice departments brought out into the open.
There was nothing religious about it, it was purely an exercise in humanity.
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Re: Redemptive Revenge


I don't know, I guess you'd have to read his book, "Rumors of Another World" by Philip Yancey.

I was able to find the source at RBC Ministries that quoted it though - it's online now.
RBC Ministries

I found more interesting info HERE, but it quotes it from Yancey's book as well.

This one is a book preview on the subject in general.
LINK
Religion and church seem to be mentioned often in dealing with the subject.


---
The cynics and the saints, the famous and unnamed, one day will all fall before You, but I'm gonna bow today... --RSJ
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Re: Redemptive Revenge


quote:

If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.



Okay, so here's my take on that...
If you DIDN'T know that it would "heap coals of fire on his head" and you shower him with love and kindness, then that may be noble and good (although pretty much out of character for much of the human race!).....

But if you KNOW that it's going to have a negative effect on him, isn't that the same thing as planning revenge anyway?

In my opinion it would be better to avoid the situation altogether. I think....
10/10/2008, 5:39 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
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Re: Redemptive Revenge


The text in Romans calls upon two Old Testament teachings.

The first is the priestly act of burning incense and making sacrifices for others just as the high priest is asked to do in Leviticus chapter 16. The second is found in Proverbs 25:21-22 which is the original scripture text that Paul is quoting.

The idea is not that the kindness is revenge but that it will open the eyes and soften the heart of those who desire to hurt or reject you and bring understanding and peace in its place.

So artists melt the sullen ore of lead,
By heaping coals of fire upon its head:
In the kind warmth the metal learns to glow,
And pure from dross the silver runs below.
S. Wesley.



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10/10/2008, 8:40 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Redemptive Revenge


To be honest Rick, I've never found kindness and friendship to work with people who are vicious and self-seeking.
If someone behaves like an ass around me, I usually ignore them. If they won't go away, I first ask politely, and if they still won't go away, I find that total rudeness puts them in their place and then they call me names, which doesn't bother me in the least, but at least they then either avoid me or treat me with respect.
There are some people who just can't take a hint so you have to beat them with a big stick.
In the main though, I find that most normal people respond to kindness and friendliness, the ones that don't, they get the above treatment.

On the subject of the TRC, Petal and I were eye-witnesses to the times that provoked the need for the commission and the times of the Commission itself, so I think that as older people who lived through Apartheid and saw the demise of the Nationalist government and then the tolerance of Nelson Mandela towards the people who kept him locked up for 27 years simply because he wanted to be allowed to vote, we are more than qualified to comment.
I doubt that Mandela's motivation had anything to do with religion. The only people who were involved in the process were Archbishop Desmond Tutu and Alan Boesak. Alan Boesak was a minister of religion who was expelled from the Dutch Reformed Church for his affair with a TV presenter who he eventually married, here is a piece from Wikipedia about him:

quote:

In the late 1990s Boesak, at the time still chairman of the Western Cape branch of the ANC, was accused of misappropriating R 250,000 of funds received from the Danish investment group Danchurch Aid, the Coca Cola Foundation and the singer Paul Simon. Meant for development projects of Boesak's Foundation for Peace and Justice within the province, the funds were apparently transferred to a private trust fund by Boesak. After police investigations, Boesak was charged with and found guilty of fraud on 24 March 1999. He was jailed in 2000 but was released in 2001, having served just over one year of his three year sentence.

Although Boesak applied for a presidential pardon from Thabo Mbeki after his release it was not granted, as the government felt that he had not admitted that he had committed an offense. However, on 15 January 2005, it was announced that he had received a presidential pardon and that his criminal record would be expunged.



He has now disappeared from the public arena.
Desmond Tutu on the other hand has always been respected and admired by liberal South Africans because he used his position in the Anglican Church to bring about the changes from which we now benefit.
He was a major player in the process of the TRC and if there is any religious part to the Commission, it would be because of his participation. But to us Tutu has always been more of a political figure than a religious one, although he does go about dressed in robes and in does invoke God whenever he feels it appropriate, his life's work has really been more towards the unbanning of the ANC and the release of Nelson Mandela.
When the ANC came to power, they formed an alliance with the SACP and as we all know communism does not have place for religion. This was one of the major reasons for the banning of the ANC in the first place; we all know of the communist panic of the 1950s and the early 60s. So if the alliance with an anti-religion party was going to give them power, I hardly think that the ANC would have religion as the basis of the TRC.
It is important to remember that it is possible to be forgiving and tolerant, and moral, without religion.
10/10/2008, 11:42 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: Redemptive Revenge


quote:

The idea is not that the kindness is revenge but that it will open the eyes and soften the heart of those who desire to hurt or reject you and bring understanding and peace in its place.

Yeah, that! Thanks Pastor Rick, excellent explanation.

quote:

Morwen Oronor wrote:

It is important to remember that it is possible to be forgiving and tolerant, and moral, without religion.


 emoticon I don't know. Where do those morals come from? Who sets the standards?

---
The cynics and the saints, the famous and unnamed, one day will all fall before You, but I'm gonna bow today... --RSJ
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Re: Redemptive Revenge


Well said Mo - you've put the correct background to the TRC in a nutshell. There was no religion involved at all other than the fact that Desmond Tutu, in his foreword to the report on the findings of the Commission, stated that "God has blessed our country" - or words to that effect.

This Yancey guy should check his facts out before writing books and bending the truth to his own advantage, and I for one wouldn't waste my time reading any of his books knowing what I know now.
I suggest that to get a background on the true happenings in South Africa, you should read something factual about the history of our country and the lead-up to the TRC, the days of the amnesty hearings, and the final report on it all. I'm sure there are plenty of sites on the internet where you could find the correct information.

Incidentally, Desmond Tutu was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984 for his struggle to end apartheid. The TRC took place in 1995.


Mel - regarding your question about where morals come from and who sets the standards for being moral, forgiving and tolerant, you're obviously referring to the fact that Mo said that you don't have to be religious to acquire those standards. And I agree with her one hundred percent on that one.

You seem to be implying that only religious people and those who believe own the cornerstone on morals and that's the biggest laugh of the day. Morality and tolerance and forgiveness are part of all of us, they are things that all decent people with good upbringing and background have inherently within them and most of us don't even think about them, the way we don't think about breathing. They aren't "standards" for normal people. It's not necessary to even think about where they come from, and it's not usual to get these "standards" from a book, whether it's a Bible or any other book. And also when you talk of "standards" - they differ for everyone. Nothing to do with belief or religion, but my so-called standards for my daily lifestyle aren't the same as yours or anyone else's, for that matter. We as human beings tend to be friendly with and get on with and associate with people who have like thoughts about things and are on the same page, even though we might not always agree we have basic commonalities.

Just because you're religious and Mo isn't, who are you to imply that you are a better person? Which, reading between the lines, you seem to do on all the threads, particularly those that you start yourself in order to try and get a rise out of people rather than actually talk about something. Revenge is a word that doesn't feature in my life at all and I wouldn't even think about it, redemptive or otherwise. And I'll vouch that Mo would agree with me there, and that she doesn't consider revenge either! You don't have to believe in biblical stuff or be religious to be a decent, kind, loving fun person and I'll fight you on that point ad infinitum, believe me. In fact, it's often those who claim to be pious and religious who are the worst offenders when it comes to morality, tolerance and forgiveness - which is why we all get up in arms when a religious person is discovered to be a paedophile for example or a major "sinner" rather than an ordinary person who doesn't claim to have any religious beliefs at all, who might do the same things. In the church I have known more hypocrites, liars, blackmailers, superficiality, judgmental people, pompous asses, blinkered thinking, and selfishness than I have experienced amongst those who don't hold themselves up as being superior to others - some people who claim to believe are definitely not as decent as those who don't. It's really no surprise that I've been going through what some would maybe call a crisis of faith for several years now.

It's the attitude that gets to me, and the conscious scheming that seems to go on in the minds of fundamentalists. I'll go with Mo anyday! I've said it before and I'll say it again .. she rocks! She is loyal and kind, moral and decent, interesting and intelligent, and has many other outstanding qualities including a great sense of humour - and believe it or not, she is one of the most gentle, quietly spoken people I know who actually listens and is always there for others.

Rick, apologies for the long rant here but this "holier than thou" attitude really gets up my nose. I'd like to ask a straight question - you are a pastor, and a great guy with a lovely sense of humour, compassion, and all the good and decent things which in my mind go along with what ministry should be all about. You're tolerant and accepting and prepared to see both sides of the coin. Why is it that those who aren't actually officially in the ministry or ordained (in the language of my church and for want of a better description) feel that they're more qualified to preach to other people? I know Mel is passionate about his beliefs but as far as I know, he is not a priest or a pastor, just an ordinary man who is trying to force his ways and thoughts on everyone else, and I don't think that just because he feels he knows what he's talking about, that he actually knows much at all! Certainly not about people, anyway!





 


Last edited by Petal Alderin, 10/11/2008, 2:20 am


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10/11/2008, 1:38 am Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: Redemptive Revenge


quote:

There was no religion involved at all

First off, where did I say there was religion involved? The original story didn't mention religion of any sort, but it was then compared to the Bible. It was a simple comparison of this story to a Biblical principle.
Did you and Morwen see every single one of these, or could you have possibly missed one?
You'd really have to take it up with Yancey about his story. Maybe you could prove him wrong and sue him or something if that would make you feel better.
quote:

I suggest that to get a background on the true happenings in South Africa, you should read something factual about the history of our country and the lead-up to the TRC, the days of the amnesty hearings, and the final report on it all. I'm sure there are plenty of sites on the internet where you could find the correct information.

I posted a couple of links, one of them was a book review and seemed to include quite a bit more mentions of religion and the church than I would have expected.

This was just one of those stories, a beautiful story of forgiveness, and a comparison of that to a Biblical perspective. Why does that anger you so much?

 emoticon

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The cynics and the saints, the famous and unnamed, one day will all fall before You, but I'm gonna bow today... --RSJ
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