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Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Good News


I'm not going to quote your whole post - it's above this for everyone to see.

I can't accept that the Dalai Lama and those extremely devout Jews who go about doing good are excluded in the great scheme of things.

When I say differently, I mean people like Mormons, JWs, Catholics, etc. Which Christians are included and which are not.

I also don't think that when Jesus said to go out and tell people about him, he meant go out and beat everyone you meet with my words. I'm sure even Jesus took time off to 'smell the roses' occasionally.

And on the punishment story. If punishment is meant to be just that, i.e. sit in jail for committing a crime, then why do the people in charge bother with rehabilitation programmes. Surely restitution is better, i.e. if you steal someone's television set, instead of going to jail, you have to replace it. That sounds like a far better punishment to me. And going to jail for using drugs, that's just stupid.

And thanks for responding to my thread.
2/6/2009, 2:14 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
Order ofMelchizedek Profile
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Re: Good News


quote:

I'm not going to quote your whole post - it's above this for everyone to see.

Yeah, I'll usually only quote small pieces that I'm directly answering, otherwise the threads get really long and confusing when there are quotes inside of quotes inside of quotes. It doesn't mean I'm ignoring any other parts, I just don't normally like to quote entire posts. If I ever miss something that you really want an answer to, let me know and I'll try to answer it.
quote:

I can't accept that the Dalai Lama and those extremely devout Jews who go about doing good are excluded in the great scheme of things.

But that's the thing. We cannot earn our way with any of the "good things" that we do, none of us can. The good will not outweigh the bad. In the Book of Isaiah, it tells us that all our "good works" are as filthy rags before the Lord. Eternal life is such a great gift that we cannot possibly hope to earn it. It would be like giving a couple of old pennies toward a brand new mansion - pathetic, and offensive to the one who gave it as a gift.
quote:

When I say differently, I mean people like Mormons, JWs, Catholics, etc.

Well, Mormons and JWs are cults and not considered Christian by evangelicals, due to some serious flaws in doctrine. Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are "spirit-brothers", that God was once a man and that we can become gods ourselves on other planets, as well as other strange stuff that contradicts the plain reading of the Bible. JWs believe that Jesus is actually the archangel Michael, deny the Trinity and have made multiple predictions of when the end would come - and have turned out to be wrong every time. The Bible warns against this, but you can find much information on such things with an internet search. Let me know if you want some Christian sources on these cults and I'll post some.
I believe some Catholics may be saved, but I think that is in spite of, not because of the Catholic church. They believe in a works righteousness, the main thing being infused righteousness, rather than imputed righteousness that Protestants believe. They also pray to Mary and the saints, which they claim is not worshipping them, but I cannot understand how it's not.

quote:

I also don't think that when Jesus said to go out and tell people about him, he meant go out and beat everyone you meet with my words.

But Jesus always used the law before grace in order for people to understand their need. No one is being beaten, they are always free to leave or ignore the message, but it must be proclaimed. People's eternity is at stake.
quote:

Surely restitution is better, i.e. if you steal someone's television set, instead of going to jail, you have to replace it.

I suppose, but what if restitution is not possible?
quote:

And going to jail for using drugs, that's just stupid.

I would take it a step further and say that using drugs is just stupid. As I understand it, drugs are easier to come by inside the jails than outside anyway, so it would seem that neither punishment nor rehabilitation is happening in that case.
quote:

And thanks for responding to my thread.

Even though we still disagree on a lot, I think we've been having a very nice and civil discussion on these volatile subjects. I appreciate that and thank you for the interesting discussions.



---

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Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/6/2009, 11:13 am Link to this post Send PM to
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Good News


You're welcome. I must admit I'm enjoying this as well.
I'm a bit tired now. I'll read through your answers tomorrow morning, when I feel fresh and come back with more for you. But yes, thanks, it's a lot better than getting nasty and saying mean things.

I'm actually quite impressed with what you've said about drugs, we actually really agree about something.

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2/6/2009, 1:24 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Good News


    
quote:


    But that's the thing. We cannot earn our way with any of the "good things" that we do, none of us can. The good will not outweigh the bad. In the Book of Isaiah, it tells us that all our "good works" are as filthy rags before the Lord. Eternal life is such a great gift that we cannot possibly hope to earn it. It would be like giving a couple of old pennies toward a brand new mansion - pathetic, and offensive to the one who gave it as a gift.




I disagree with you on that. No gift should ever be spurned for not being enough, even a few pennies towards the building of a mansion. In my opinion life is the greatest gift that anyone can bestow on anyone else and it should be embraced and enjoyed and revelled in for its entire length. To me the greatest crime is the taking of a life, all life, no matter for what reason. If you say that there is no reward but that 'eternal life is a great gift' then surely the purpose of doing what you do is the achievement of that gift. If there was absolute proof, forgetting what you believe for a moment, if it were possible to know for absolute certain that there was no life after death and that death was indeed the end, would you still follow your religion so assiduously? I doubt it.

   
quote:


   
quote:


        I also don't think that when Jesus said to go out and tell people about him, he meant go out and beat everyone you meet with my words.




But Jesus always used the law before grace in order for people to understand their need. No one is being beaten, they are always free to leave or ignore the message, but it must be proclaimed. People's eternity is at stake.



The 'eternal life' of other people is not my concern. My concern is my own life and those of the people I care about. And I am not convinced that Jesus, if he existed, ever intended that people should go to war (the Crusades), torture and destroy other people (the Inquisition) or harangue other people (proselytizing) in his name. i also don't believe that people who have never heard of him, i.e. all the people who were living in China and South America, western Europe, western North Africa, southern Africa and Australasia, during his lifetime, are all burning in eternal hellfire.

    
quote:



        
quote:



           Surely restitution is better, i.e. if you steal someone's television set, instead of going to jail, you have to replace it.





    I suppose, but what if restitution is not possible?




Restitution is always possible. The excuse that it is not possible is nonsense. It worked very well until people decided that it's better to waste public money by locking up offenders rather than making them fix what they've broken.

    
quote:



        
quote:

And going to jail for using drugs, that's just stupid.





I would take it a step further and say that using drugs is just stupid. As I understand it, drugs are easier to come by inside the jails than outside anyway, so it would seem that neither punishment nor rehabilitation is happening in that case.



Nothing works to stop people abusing their bodies. So why bother with it. All the money spent on keeping people in jail because they want to destroy themselves with chemicals would be far better used to do research to make the same high available without the side-effects. Take away the illegality of drugs, prostitution etc, and you take away the thrill.

Last edited by Morwen Oronor, 2/7/2009, 6:10 am
2/6/2009, 11:29 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Good News


quote:

I disagree with you on that. No gift should ever be spurned for not being enough, even a few pennies towards the building of a mansion.

But the gift of life was given to us, and if we make a pathetic attempt to pay for it so we can feel like we've contributed something, when we cannot, that is offensive to the giver.
quote:

If there was absolute proof, forgetting what you believe for a moment, if it were possible to know for absolute certain that there was no life after death and that death was indeed the end, would you still follow your religion so assiduously? I doubt it.

I suppose you're right. This could never happen, but if this is all there was, with no reward, no judgment, nothing, I would live my life without regard to any rules, doing only what I felt was best for myself, giving in completely to the sinful, selfish nature. I'd be a fool for doing anything less. So, I guess you can be glad of Christianity because it holds me back from being as evil as I would be without God's restraining hand upon me.
On the other hand, the Bible tells us that if there is no resurrection, then we Christians should be pitied more than all men.
quote:

The 'eternal life' of other people is not my concern.

Of course not, and we couldn't expect that from an unbeliever, that wouldn't make any sense at all. But those who do believe, must take it very seriously.
quote:

And I am not convinced that Jesus, if he existed, ever intended

Ah, He knew all that stuff. He is sovereign, and nothing happens anywhere without being cleard through Him first. Even evil can be used for His good purpose. He is not sitting up in heaven, going, "Oh no, I can't believe they did that!" What kind of God would that be?
quote:

Restitution is always possible. The excuse that it is not possible is nonsense.

Alright then. A homeless man kills your entire family and steals your car, totals it when he crashes through the bedroom wall of a home, destroying another life in the process. Now what?


---

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Walked among us as a Man
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Love divine, crucified, made alive,
You're alive...

2/7/2009, 1:38 am Link to this post Send PM to
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Good News


quote:

Order ofMelchizedek wrote:

But the gift of life was given to us, and if we make a pathetic attempt to pay for it so we can feel like we've contributed something, when we cannot, that is offensive to the giver.



Surely a gift is given without expectation of something in return. Anything else makes it not a 'gift', it then becomes a payment or a service. So if you are expected to 'pay' for having been given life by being obedient to the rules attached to the 'gift' then it is a contract with conditions, and not a gift.

quote:

I suppose you're right. This could never happen, but if this is all there was, with no reward, no judgment, nothing, I would live my life without regard to any rules, doing only what I felt was best for myself, giving in completely to the sinful, selfish nature. I'd be a fool for doing anything less. So, I guess you can be glad of Christianity because it holds me back from being as evil as I would be without God's restraining hand upon me.



Then what you are saying is that you have no moral values other than those given by the Bible. That is a frightening admission to make.

quote:


quote:

The 'eternal life' of other people is not my concern.


Of course not, and we couldn't expect that from an unbeliever, that wouldn't make any sense at all. But those who do believe, must take it very seriously.



Why, why should you be concerned with the lives of people on the other side of the world. Isn't it better to remove the dirt in front of your own door, rather than sweep up the dust outside someone else's?

quote:


quote:

And I am not convinced that Jesus, if he existed, ever intended


Ah, He knew all that stuff. He is sovereign, and nothing happens anywhere without being cleard through Him first. Even evil can be used for His good purpose. He is not sitting up in heaven, going, "Oh no, I can't believe they did that!" What kind of God would that be?


A god who truly cared for the people he created wouldn't constantly test them to see if they were worthy. If they're created in his image, then by their not being worthy, they are merely displaying his own flaws. Why make people as if they are toys and then discard them when they don't do what you want them to do. And why have a second oppotunity at life, why not just this one?

quote:


quote:

Restitution is always possible. The excuse that it is not possible is nonsense.

Alright then. A homeless man kills your entire family and steals your car, totals it when he crashes through the bedroom wall of a home, destroying another life in the process. Now what?


My personal opinion? He then becomes your slave and you can do with him what you will. If that means putting shackles on him and making him work for every piece of food that he eats, so be it. The idea of being given into slavery if you commit a crime is a far worse detterent than life imprisonment, with books, television, church, libraries, three solid meals a day, the best medical care etc. And it is more of a deterrent than the death penalty. If you are prepared to kill another person, then you don't really care very much for your own life.
I told you I had been doing some soul-searching. I've come to the conclusion that there are some old ideas that are not that terrible. It is immoral to take innocent people and turn them into slaves for the betterment of the lives of others. But slavery as a punishment, I think it is a wonderful idea. Branded as a slave, no matter what you do for the rest of your life, you'll always been known as a criminal. I think that would make a lot of people think twice about doing the crime.


Last edited by Morwen Oronor, 2/7/2009, 6:22 am
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Re: Good News


I was just looking through this old thread and remembered the Scripture that says that the Good News of the cross if foolishness to those who are perishing.

I think one of the misunderstandings is the idea that all people are children of God. That's actually not true. Some are children of the devil, children of wrath. Does that change anything?



---

Do you not know? Have you not heard? He gives strength to the weary. To those who hope in Him, they will soar like eagles. -RSJ

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Re: Good News


Who says any child is the child of the devil? Or a child of wrath? And how do you define that?

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8/25/2009, 5:43 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Good News


Here's what the Bible says.

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.


And such were some of us. But we are changed, made new, for the old has gone and the new has come!

Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.


And that's what makes the Good News so good! We don't deserve it, we can't earn it, yet it is still available to us.



---

Do you not know? Have you not heard? He gives strength to the weary. To those who hope in Him, they will soar like eagles. -RSJ

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Re: Good News


And if we believe the Bible is a fairy story?
Thank goodness I believe that people are inherently good, I don't believe in the devil, and I think wrath is an old fashioned term which isn't applicable today!

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