Pastor Rick
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Registered: 07-2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1900
Karma: 29 (+42/-13)
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Re: Theology Discussion
I don't believe I owe a debt to the USA IRS as I am losing money which would logically say there is no income yet in a fight with them I would lose and they would collect on the debt.
The creditor always holds the upper hand and decides what will be accepted as payment. Therefore, it matters not what I believe to be the case, what matters is what the creditor believes and what I do with that for it is the creditor who sets the rules.
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8/30/2008, 11:16 am
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Morwen Oronor
Resident Scholar
Registered: 01-2008
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1743
Karma: 15 (+28/-13)
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Re: Theology Discussion
Ah but what happens if you don't believe the debt is owed, and that the creditor doesn't exist and in a long lifetime you have never had any evidence of his/her existence. Then there can't be a debt.
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8/30/2008, 11:47 am
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Order ofMelchizedek
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Registered: 07-2006
Location: Here I am
Posts: 504
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Re: Theology Discussion
Try that in a court of law, Morwen.
"Judge, I don't believe in the electric chair! As a matter of fact, I don't even believe in YOU!"
The gavel slams down, and off ya go....
And by the time you "believe", well, it's too late.
--- Lord, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I’m not scared 'cause You’re holding my breath.
I only fear that I don’t have enough time left, to tell the world that there’s no time left. -G1C
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8/30/2008, 3:35 pm
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Morwen Oronor
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Registered: 01-2008
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1743
Karma: 15 (+28/-13)
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Re: Theology Discussion
You see you really don't get analogy.
If I went into court to defend myself because someone I don't know and who can't be proved to me to exist, says that I owe him money. The judge would throw the case out of court because he would want the person claiming that I owe the money to prove that the both he and the debt exist.
Of course the electric chair exists, I know it does, I've read about it, I've seen it on television documentaries, I've seen it used in movies. I know judges exist, I've been to court, I've met judges outside of court, I've seen them on television shows and documentaries and I've read the work that they've written and I've read court papers.
But if I can't produce the person who claims to be owed a debt and I can't produce proof of owing the debt, no court in the world will force me to repay a debt that can't be seen to be owed.
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8/30/2008, 10:05 pm
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Lesigner Girl
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Head of Runboard staff
Registered: 11-2005
Posts: 634
Karma: 13 (+15/-2)
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Re: Theology Discussion
Not to mention, there would never be a court case, because the person you supposedly owe, whose existence has never been proven, never shows up to file a claim, and the courthouse has no record of this person's existence.
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8/31/2008, 2:58 am
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Morwen Oronor
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Registered: 01-2008
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1743
Karma: 15 (+28/-13)
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Re: Theology Discussion
Thanks Lesa, and yes, I agree.
I can see the courtroom, "Your Honor, I am here to defend a claim made against me that I have to repay a debit to Mr X. But I have never met Mr X, I've never had any dealings with him, never owed him anything, and have no idea about where to find him. He has an attorney but the attorney has never met him, has never heard from him, and never been appointed by him".
"Is there a psychiatrist in the Court?" asks the Judge, or "are you being funny, you are going to spend 30 days in jail for wasting the Court's time with silliness."
And then there'll be a movement started to get me out of jail. A movie script writer will offer me a fortune to write my story..................
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8/31/2008, 6:09 am
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Morwen Oronor
Resident Scholar
Registered: 01-2008
Location: South Africa
Posts: 1743
Karma: 15 (+28/-13)
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Re: Theology Discussion
No they don't.
Analogy is a wonderful way to explain something very complicated to someone who is not familiar with a subject.
To be useful, an analogy has to make sense. Your analogy of my owing money to a creditor who doesn't exist is merely an attempt to convince me that I should believe in a deity that doesn't exist. I'd rather believe in, and worship Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great, because they were real people, who did exist and their wonderful deeds are properly recorded and able to be studied and evaluated.
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9/1/2008, 8:10 am
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Sertab
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Registered: 05-2005
Posts: 176
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Re: Theology Discussion
'believe' in what?
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9/1/2008, 10:34 am
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Pastor Rick
Administrator
Registered: 07-2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1900
Karma: 29 (+42/-13)
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Re: Theology Discussion
Hi Serts
The discussion was supposed to be on Lordship Salvation vs Grace Salvation... I happen to believe the 2nd is the proper exegesis of what the Bible has to say and presented a very brief summary of my position. Mo and Lesa have confirmed the concept idea but pointed out that to have validity you must first believe there is a God. This is much the same as a alcoholic's position since before the alcoholic can get help he must first admit that he really does have the condition and is in need of help.
I am still waiting on Mels post outlining his position on Lordship salvation (hint hint to Mel )...
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9/1/2008, 11:31 am
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