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Pastor Rick Profile
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Re: Dangerous Christianity?


Just a few brief notes because I have to wait till I actually have time to go through this properly.

First, I feel ID is at least as scientific as Evolutionary theory.

Second, I feel most people equate ID with creationism and while there are similarities the two are NOT the same.

Third, while ID has a large christian following it is NOT a repackaging of Christianity.

Fourth, ID does not identify who or what the designer is, the theory simply shows the commonalities discovered which point to design.

Fifth, ID can be tested in the same way the Evolutionary theory is tested which qualifies it as being at least as legitimate as the Evolutionary theory in regards to being scientific.

Sixth, because of number three above ID is actually off topic with this topics question and should really have its own topic.

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8/29/2008, 9:08 am Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Dangerous Christianity?


Sorry Rick, what is ID? (blushing for not thinking straight as usual!)

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8/29/2008, 10:21 am Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Dangerous Christianity?


Intelligent Design. Creationism in a seemingly scientific guise.

Intelligent design explained intelligently


Last edited by Morwen Oronor, 8/29/2008, 10:35 am
8/29/2008, 10:31 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Dangerous Christianity?


Here is some of the terminology from Wikipedia:

irreducible complexity


What it comes down to is "yes there is some truth in fossils and yes, we could possibly be developing both intellectually and physically but if God didn't create us and if we evolved, why do we still have a useless organ like the appendix" I think that is mentioned in the other link I sent you.

The problem is that in the last couple of years, ongoing scientific investigation is finding that the appendix does indeed have a purpose and that purpose is related to the auto-immune system, so far from being a useless organ both the appendix and the tonsils do serve a purpose.

If you go with creation, then we were created perfect and we are all created in God's image. If you believe this you have to be able to explain that if God is perfect, and omnipresent and omniscient and we are created n his image then why aren't we like the 'Heroes' in the TV series. Why can't we see, hear and know everything and why do we have to be taught to read and write and above all to worship God, surely we should automatically know everything about him.
8/29/2008, 10:47 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Dangerous Christianity?


quote:

No kidding, you could have fooled me, not a scientist?

emoticon I knew you'd be shocked. emoticon
quote:

Of course you aren't a scientist. Understanding scientific research is necessary in order to be a scientist and having an objective point of view is necessary. You cannot be objective if you base everything you seek to prove on personal experience and observation.


Or a preconceived theory that you're trying to prove. But anyway, I am not trying to prove anything with this thread. This has been said to me, directly, and I'm simply looking for further insight into it. Personally, I find it completely ridiculous that anyone would find Christianity "dangerous."
quote:

In scientific research method, religion is classed as mythology because it's assertions cannot be scientifically proved. This is not in my mind, it is in the writings of the authors that I read.

Ah, so it just becomes a matter of who you put your faith in.
quote:

If it is not mythology, then why do books on mythology explain the origins of religious beliefs and why do books about science not explain religion?

How small of a God would be explained away by His own creation? You can call Christianity mythology if you choose, but likewise, I will call Darwinian evolution the fairy tale that it is. I doubt we'll ever agree on these two points.
quote:

I can't see the correlation between believing what can be proved scientifically should constitute 'fear'.

Me neither.
quote:

That is what I'm talking about. I wasn't referring to you personally.

No, I didn't take it personally. But true Christians, in general, are not against science. It's not an either - or situation. The problem comes from the fact that we do not accept Darwinian evolution as science. I see it as a type of "religion" for atheists.
quote:

You are saying that we will all be held accountable for our thoughts and deeds. Are you saying that there is some great record-keeper somewhere that records every single human's every single thought.

Yes, that would be God, our Creator and Sustainer.
quote:

What about people who can't think, say someone who is comatose.

Well, I guess they wouldn't have as much to be judged on.
quote:

What about involuntary responses, are we going to be responsible for those as well?

I don't know, do you have an example?
quote:

And you have proof that this record-keeper exists and has kept records of all the billions of people who have ever lived and who will every live, or are you referring to an omnipotent and omniscient God who knows everything?

Yeah, God. That's it! And the proof is in creation.
quote:

The what about the people who have never heard of him? There are some Indians in South America who haven't, do they burn in eternal hell-fire?

I suppose so. We best get some missionaries out there.
quote:

God made science, really? Then why didn't he teach it to Adam and Eve instead of making them make fire with sticks? And if he made science why did we go through various Dark Ages where there was no scientific advancement whatsoever? Was God sleeping?

Nothing happens without it going through God first. Nothing. He is sovereign, and I cannot explain why He does what He does. If I could, then I'd be god, and we'd all be in trouble then.
quote:

Of course we are at the bottom of the food chain. Cockroaches are the perfect evolution. They do not need to change in any way because their whole system works perfectly,

So, that's what we have to look forward to evolving into, by your theory? I think I'll stick to mine.

quote:

God does not give me freedom, I take what I want out of life.


You do nothing apart from God allowing it. Do you cause your own heart to beat? When will it stop? Why will it stop, if you are in control of it. Do you consciously and purposefully take every breath? What about those involuntary responses you mentioned earlier? Where do those come from? Do you control them?
quote:

Pain, suffering and injustice are not as a result of sin. Pain is the body's natural response to injury. Suffering may be the result of pain or stupid decisions or through circumstances beyond one's control and injustice is another of man's stupidities.

So basically, you don't have a reason or understanding of why regarding these things, it's just not what I said.
quote:

But despite having lived through a life of pain, suffering and injustice, I have risen above anything that life has thrown at me and I thrill to every new day and take whatever joy I can out of it, even if that joy is simply watching my dog enjoy digging a hole in the garden. I don't regard the surgeries I've had or the births of my children or my fall out of bed the other morning as being 'punishment' for sinning, yet all were pretty painful.


No, not everything is punishment. We live in a fallen world, under the curse of sin.
quote:

Of course religion, no matter what it is has the propensity to become dangerous. Look at what happened in Waco, Serbia, the Holocaust, Apartheid South Africa, the USA on 9/1l and the Inquisition, all the horrors of these events were as a result of some or other religious belief. And you are saying that we shouldn't fear what fundamentalist religion can do.

So.... you do consider it a dangerous belief system? At least, potentially?
quote:

All I'm doing here is disagreeing with your assertion that non-believers fear Christianity in particular.


I'm not asserting that. I don't think they should, but I've been told by atheists that it is a "dangerous" belief. And you seem to agree. You said:
quote:

Of course religion, no matter what it is has the propensity to become dangerous.



quote:

Of course it can't. And if I were a child in school and it were offered to me, my first question would be who was the designer and who designed him?

And then, of course, you'd have to ask who created him, and who created him, and who created him etc. An infinite regression. Every effect has to have a cause.
But here's the thing. God is not an effect, He is the cause. He is infinite and has always existed.


---
Lord, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I’m not scared 'cause You’re holding my breath.
I only fear that I don’t have enough time left, to tell the world that there’s no time left. -G1C

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Re: Dangerous Christianity?


quote:

Christianity can be dangerous when cults are formed and people get brainwashed - that is pure evil for man's own fulfillment in the name of Christianity and it's also a hoax.

Exactly. So, do some consider mainstream orthodox Christianity to be the same as that?
quote:

I think faith healers are also evil because they give people false hope and again seem to somehow convince them that if they believe they will be healed, but of course at the same time these folk are convinced to hand over their pay packets every month.

Agreed, there are tons of false teachers and hypocrites, giving a bad name to the real believers out there.
quote:

I also think that religion in general instils too much guilt in the people who believe, and a certain fear as well -

Again, sometimes there are evil men using religion as a means for their own gain, and they will be judged most harshly.
quote:

if God is a God of love, why should He be feared?

He is not only a God of love, He is also holy, righteous and just. The fear comes when we don't live up to His standards, when we find ourselves on the wrong end of His justice. Then we should fear His awesome power.

----------------------------------------
quote:

If you are so joyous in your belief then why is that belief steeped in fear: fear of death without expiation of sin; death without promise of life in heaven; fear of your parents; fear of the preacher; fear of what others might think; fear of what will happen if you should reveal your 'otherness'. And guilt: guilt of having committed a sin; guilt of not 'honoring your parents'; guilt about 'sinful' thoughts; guilt about perhaps perceived 'sinful' deeds.


Because all of this can be forgiven by a merciful and loving God who provided a way.
quote:

If you are loved by your parents you trust them and you don't fear that they will smite you if you stray.

You don't discipline your kids?
quote:

This isn't the behavior of a loving parent, this is the behavior of a jealous and vengeful god. True love is never vengeful and steeped in jealousy yet the 'love' of God is full of vengeance and jealousy:

So, do you not believe in God, or you're just mad at Him?
quote:

Does this sound like a good and loving parent and the parent about whose worship we are meant to be joyous.


The parent-child analogy eventually falls short. God created us and has every right to do whatever He will with us. Seems like you might have a bit of a secular humanist aspect to your beliefs as well.


---
Lord, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I’m not scared 'cause You’re holding my breath.
I only fear that I don’t have enough time left, to tell the world that there’s no time left. -G1C

8/29/2008, 2:08 pm Link to this post Send PM to
 
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Re: Dangerous Christianity?


quote:

Morwen Oronor wrote:

Intelligent Design. Creationism in a seemingly scientific guise.

Intelligent design explained intelligently



Should you care to see a more rational explanation of ID and why it is NOT creationism try this link...


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8/29/2008, 9:52 pm Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Dangerous Christianity?


Image


quote:

In recent years, biologists have discovered an exquisite world of nanotechnology within living cells - complex circuits, sliding clamps, energy-generating turbines and miniature machines. For example, bacterial cells are propelled by rotary engines called flagellar motors that rotate at 100,000rpm. These engines look like they were designed by engineers, with many distinct mechanical parts (made of proteins), including rotors, stators, O-rings, bushings, U-joints and drive shafts.

The biochemist Michael Behe points out that the flagellar motor depends on the co-ordinated function of 30 protein parts. Remove one of these proteins and the rotary motor doesn't work. The motor is, in Behe's words, "irreducibly complex".

This creates a problem for the Darwinian mechanism. Natural selection preserves or "selects" functional advantages as they arise by random mutation. Yet the flagellar motor does not function unless all its 30 parts are present. Thus, natural selection can "select" the motor once it has arisen as a functioning whole, but it cannot produce the motor in a step-by-step Darwinian fashion.




 emoticon emoticon emoticon

I have an appointment with my body mechanic on Monday. There's something wrong with some of my flagellar motors.
 emoticon emoticon


I'm laughing so much, I have tears rolling down my cheeks. Thanks Rick for the joke I rally needed a good laugh after having had a really bad night with sick dogs, maybe their 'o' rings need attention.

 emoticon

Last edited by Morwen Oronor, 8/29/2008, 10:59 pm
8/29/2008, 10:58 pm Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 
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Re: Dangerous Christianity?


I could go totally serious but I don't think that is what is needed with a topic this volatile do you?

For myself, I would like to see peer review papers on some of the ideas and concepts put forward using the ID methodology. It would seem to encompass all the earmarks of a genuine scientific theory (including being falsifiable). I have not seen such and even the proponents of the theory admit that this is a weak point since to be peer reviewed you have to be published and as long as ID is associated with creationism that isn't going to happen...

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8/30/2008, 12:40 am Link to this post Send e-mail to   Send PM to Blog
 
Morwen Oronor Profile
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Re: Dangerous Christianity?


Rick, I'm sorry I really don't mean to make light of people's beliefs. I truly respect that you and other people I know (and love) believe in.
I just can't help seeing the funny side of things.
To me life is just one big joke waiting for a punch line.
8/30/2008, 2:24 am Link to this post Send PM to Blog
 


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